Xenos B for tall pilot?
Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 4:05 pm
by CloudbaseEng
Hello All,
I have sat in a few A model Sonex Aircraft overt the years and also in Pete Buck’s Xenos in Tehachapi CA and as much as I love the Xenos, I just did not fit. Now with the B mods, it has me rethinking the Xenos again. I am 6’3" and 225lbs. My issue was more width than anything as my dad is also a similar size and it would be nice to fly with him. I am an ex Sailplane and Hanglider pilot who also considered a Moni, but that is another tight fit for me and its 2 stroke. Anyone know how the B versions fit larger pilots?
Best regards,
Marc Webster
Cloudbase Engineeirng LLC
www.cloudbaseengineering.com
Re: Xenos B for tall pilot?
Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:47 am
by drPete
Marc,
I have a Xenos B fuselage without seat pan but with the canopy installed. Stop by in a few months on your next trip through WV selling those really nice looking camera mounts and sit in it!
I too was a Moni fan, an still have the Moni study plans that I purchased in 1984. There is a Moni hanging in the Smithsonian out by KIAD.
Regards,
Pete
Xenos B for tall pilot?
Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:15 pm
by Lbrandt
I recently completed my Sonex B conversion.
I have been doing some engine running and testing over the last couple weeks.
I am very disappointed in how much leg room there is in the B model.
The seat attach points have been changed. I suppose now it resembles the seat position for the lowered seat modification.
I’m tall, 6’ plus a fraction and I have to leave the back cushion out in order to have room for my knees under the panel.
Previously with the dual stick I could spread my knees and have plenty of room. BUT with the new Center stick I am not able to comfortably move the stick for left aileron. I never had this problem in the Legacy model.
The back of the seat previously attached to the rear spar carry through. Now it is forward of the rear spar carry through shortening the distance from the rudder peddles to the bottom back corner of the seat back. It shortened the distance by over an inch.
It’s wider. Harder to build and has less leg room.
Anyone want to buy a B model?
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Re: Xenos B for tall pilot?
Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:16 pm
by thomas
Leroy,
I’ve been off the forum for a while and first post I see is yours. As an B-model builder whose also over 6’ tall, I’m really sorry to hear your impressions after all the work you have put into this conversion. I sat in the demo B-model Waiex and it seemed ok, but I’ve not sat in a legacy Sonex for comparison. You’ve been a pioneer in this, so there are many of us who would like to know more about your experience and how your UL Power conversion turned out.
Thanks!
Paul
Xenos B for tall pilot?
Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:05 pm
by Lbrandt
Paul
I hope to be able to fly in a week or so if we get a semi warm day in Wisconsin plus I need a fresh biannual, mine ran out Oct 31 or I would have flown it already.
I’m looking forward to seeing what the numbers are with the UL260IS. It seems strong on a few high speed runs with lots of forward stick. It’s going to be much better than my AeroVee. I’ve got 25 Hours in phase 1 and probably 3-4 hours trying to get off the ground. Once I was in the air it was a blast but getting there on turf was hard.
I’m just disappointed because the seat back is farther forward than on the Legacy version.
I’m planning on installing the seat back bottom hinge on the rear spar carry through like the Legacy was done. It’ll help my situation.
I’m also considering an offset control stick. I used a straight stick rather than the y. I knew early on that the y would not work for me.
Does anyone actually post here? It doesn’t appear that too many post here.
I rarely post but this problem really angers me. And they appear to be oblivious to my problem.
Thanks
Leroy
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Re: Xenos B for tall pilot?
Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:47 am
by WaiexN143NM
Leroy,
Thanks for the posts. Have you been in contact w sonex and shared your concerns? Has any other b models flown? Maybe yours will be the first customer one to fly. Maybe sonex needs to take a look at your suggestion to move the bottom hinge seat back position to the rear spar carry thru for taller pilots.
Let us know how it goes. Did you do a rebuild /conversion? Or a totally new aircraft? Also yes tell us when you have first flight and UL power engine impression.
I expect to see more posts on the b model, builds and flying talk. Remember its still kinda new.
Also is dual stick still an option for the b models? I 'll look at the sonex web site. Maybe thats another thing for sonex to look into.
Added: just looked at sonex website, looks like just a center straight stick , or center y stick. Maybe a true dual stick sonex could design / offer.
Be safe,
WaiexN143NM
Michael
Re: Xenos B for tall pilot?
Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:29 am
by thomas
Thank you, Leroy. I remember you posting that yours is a conversion from a legacy model. As Michael mentioned, you may be the first customer B-model flying. Maybe there’re others flying but I agree it’s been relatively quiet from the B-model community. For me, I lost this last year of building because I had to relocate my shop right after I purchased my B-model kit. I think your experience with both legacy and B-model is great for this community. You might be surprised by how much discussion there will be if you start a new thread called something like “Sonex-B flying.”
Thanks,
Paul
Re: Xenos B for tall pilot?
Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:35 am
by SonexFactoryTech
Leroy,
Please send me photos of your seat back installation. (tech@sonexaircraft.com)
Did you try on our factory Waiex-B during any of your visits to our Oshkosh factory? If so, did that fit you? If that fit you then your conversion should as well as they would be identical.
We produce a standard product and each individual needs to decide if that product meets their needs. We cannot customize each airframe and building experience to meet the individual needs of each builder. We hope you took the time on one of your visits our factory or to AirVenture to sit in our factory B-Model prototype prior to committing to rebuilding your legacy airframe as a B-Model.
Please respond directly to the tech support email address: tech@sonexaircraft.com
Blue Skies…
Kerry
Sonex Aircraft
Re: Xenos B for tall pilot?
Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:53 am
by DCASonex
Have not had chance to closely examine a B model, but from photos wonder if the back of the seat base is kept forward to clear the new electric flap drive? With top of seat back now recessed, it does sound like the new design would be good for someone of my build, long torso, short legs, but not as good for someone with opposite proportions. The new flap drive looks like a very good solid design, but if it does limit seat back location, might it be practical to modify the flap operator or even make a hybrid by adding electric operator to the old style flap operator as I and several others have done so as to be able to push back the base of the seat?
David A. Sonex TD, standard seat, center stick.
Re: Xenos B for tall pilot?
Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:34 pm
by SonexFactoryTech
Before the long weekend settles on us I’m posting two photos of the under-panel leg room available in a B-Model airframe compared to a Legacy airframe.
For reference, I am 6’-0" tall with an inseam of 34". In other words, I have long legs.
The Legacy Sonex photo is of Sonex serial number 1, with a standard (non-lowered) seat. The B-Model photo is the Waiex-B prototype that has been available for at least 2 years for customers to try on. I found it somewhat easier to slip my legs under the B-Model panel than the Legacy Sonex panel. I had a minimum of 5" of space between my legs and the bottom of the panel in both airframes.
Adding under-panel switch panels and such will reduce the amount of leg room under the panel.
http://www.sonexaircraft.com/images/Leg … -Model.jpg
http://www.sonexaircraft.com/images/Leg_Room-Legacy.jpg
Blue Skies…
Kerry Fores
Sonex Aircraft
Xenos B for tall pilot?
Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:52 pm
by Lbrandt
Michael
I did explain my space problem to Mark a couple weeks ago. He really couldn’t see how I could have a problem with the dimensions of the cockpit.
The center stick configuration along with the seat back hinge placement is what created the problem,
I built the very first B conversion.
My Legacy Sonex suffered some damage in a landing after my AeroVee broke a valve adjuster. Downwind landing back at the airport that I had just left about 8 minutes prior plus I was high and fast when I reached the end of the runway. So she suffered some damage so I decided like Kerry said to get the latest and greatest.
I actually had more fun plans building a big share of my earlier Sonex, no waiting for parts, no incorrect parts, no wrong bolt sizes. I thought the plans left a lot to be desired.
I never would have made a post like this when Jeremy was still around but I probably wouldn’t have had to either.
I’ll be happy to post some performance numbers when I get my biannual out of the way and we get some warmer days.
I may just fly it with a local ag pilot rather than wait. I never could have gotten in the air with two people with the AeroVee but the 107HP UL feels really strong. I have the Prince P-Top prop.
Thanks
Leroy
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Re: Xenos B for tall pilot?
Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:08 pm
by WaiexN143NM
Hi leroy,all,
I understand your fustration. Kerrys reached out to you, please take up his offer of assistance. Your the first one to customer finish a B model. I remember your story now with vw legacy sonex. Pick a good day to fly. Can you fly as a sport pilot lsa using your drivers license? Understand u need a biannieal.
Dont know if moving the bottom seat back hinge is ok , like david wondered about with flap drive. Kerry could advise. But understand gives another inch.
Maybe as i earlier stated a dual stick setup like the legacy line may suit some builders better.,maybe even the older dual stick mixer box still work?
Keep your suggestions coming. We want to hear. Im sure sonex is interested in your feedback. Your’e a trailblazer.
Jeremy. Ugh, well he will always be missed and remembered. Im sure much more so at the factory, more than us.
Remember this is supposed to be fun. After the 5:30 news each day its fun to retreat to the workshop.
If you had any plans mistakes i hope you wrote them down, so you could pass on to sonex for review and revision. My friend from texas phil davis built one of the first onex’s . He was in constant contact with kerry. He helped proof the plans.
I have a set of ‘B’ plans for #183.
Keep posting , let us know of your first flight, and any mods you decide to do.
Happy Thanksgiving to the Monnetts, the factory and staff, the sonex community.
WaiexN143NM
Michael
Xenos B for tall pilot?
Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:51 pm
by Lbrandt
Michael & anyone else that might be interested
I can make it work for me if I leave the rear cushion out of the airplane.
The seat was not changed because of the flap actuator position which one builder mentioned. It’s location is quite far back.
The new control stick is beautifully machined but it changes the location of the elevator pushrod to the center of the airplane rather than offset to the left like on the Legacy so both of the vertical control rod supports in the tail cone have to be repositioned. The most rearward vertical is a real tough one to get to. I had to remove the tail cone bottom skin to get to it.
I have taken photos of how I fit in my taildragger Legacy model and my B-Model and sent them to Kerry.
I’ll try and post those three photos here as well. Of course the one with the stick between my legs is #173 which I still have and the other two are the B-Model, one withe seat back in and one with it out.
I got my biannual done today so hopefully I can fly it this week.
Thanks
Leroy
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Re: Xenos B for tall pilot?
Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:26 am
by SonexFactoryTech
Sonex Friends,
We have asked Leroy for more photos of his seat back installation which we are confident he will supply. At this time we are still fact-finding and until we know all of the facts we do not know that there is a problem other than a builder modification impacting personal comfort.
Leroy’s airframes have both been modified with under-panel switch extensions. Of course, modifications to the product we designed, detailed in the plans, and delivered in kit form will impact an individual airframe’s fit, finish, and performance. Plus there is the individual definition of subjective terms like “tight,” “cramped,” “small,” “room,” etc. Also, the B-Model panel is much larger than the Legacy panel and can accommodate more switches and avionics for those who like to really equip their cockpits. This can render unnecessary builder-designed/installed subpanels that some builders have added to their aircraft.
We would like to point out again that the B-Model airframe has been available for customers to try on for at least two years, at Sun and Fun, at AirVenture, and at our factory here in Oshkosh, WI. To date, the vast majority (I have no knowledge of anyone that didn’t find it roomier but I’m leaving that possibility open) of those that have sat in the un-modified B-Model cockpit have found it to be roomier than the Legacy model. We do not yet know if Leroy tried on our prototype on one of his many visits to our factory.
We feel it is important to participate in this thread though we prefer to communicate personally and privately with our builders. If you are following this thread but have not read my recent Kitplanes article “Misplaced Confidence,” I encourage you to do so.
https://www.thelifeofdanger.com/all-sto … confidence
Blue Skies…
Kerry Fores
tech@sonexaircraft.com
Sonex Aircraft, LLC
http://www.sonexaircraft.com
Xenos B for tall pilot?
Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:47 am
by Lbrandt
Hi All
I did not try on the B-Model. It’s wider so why would I end up with less room.
Kerry, you’re assuming that everyone wants a center stick. I did not but had no choice in the matter.
The first photo of the B-Model shows my knee almost hitting the sub panel that’s with the seat back cushion in. The next photo is with it removed. I do have a little more room but my right leg is uncomfortably straight and not spread out like it’d like it because the darn stick is in the way.
Of course Sonex can do no wrong.
I have 35k more dollars in this airplane and I’m not comfortable like I was in the Legacy.
DO NOT MAKE ME OUT TO BE THE PROBLEM HERE!
Leroy
More photos are coming
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Re: Xenos B for tall pilot?
Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:19 pm
by SonexFactoryTech
Lbrandt wrote:Hi All
I did not try on the B-Model. It’s wider so why would I end up with less room.
Kerry, you’re assuming that everyone wants a center stick. I did not but had no choice in the matter.
The first photo of the B-Model shows my knee almost hitting the sub panel that’s with the seat back cushion in. The next photo is with it removed. I do have a little more room but my right leg is uncomfortably straight and not spread out like it’d like it because the darn stick is in the way.
Of course Sonex can do no wrong.
I have 35k more dollars in this airplane and I’m not comfortable like I was in the Legacy.
DO NOT MAKE ME OUT TO BE THE PROBLEM HERE!
Leroy
All,
We are happy to see Leroy has flown his B-Model Sonex and has reported that first flight elsewhere on this list. In reporting his first flight to us he stated, “I didn’t notice a big problem yesterday so it’ll probably be okay for me in the future as well.” This was in regard to his stick/leg room, the crux of this entire thread.
Our recommendation to Leroy to increase his leg room was to remove his switch sub-panel and lengthen his joystick. That would move his hand and the bulk of the grip above his leg and provide more legroom. That would also match our factory prototypes. We are happy to hear that Leroy feels that will not be necessary now that he has completed his first flight.
Sonex Aircraft designs products that target individuals who like to tinker and customize. We strive to make right on the things we mess up but we cannot accept responsibility for individual customizations and we cannot remain silent when individual customizations to our product may negatively impact other’s perceptions of what we are offering.
Blue Skies…
Kerry Fores
Sonex Airraft LLC