What is my plane worth?
Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 10:03 am
by gyroron
Curious as to what some of you folks would say my plane is worth.
It is a Waiex, built in 2010 ( I believe, I would need to check the logs at the airport ) It has dual sticks, tail dragger gear. Power is Jabiru 3300 with aerocarb. The engine is a 2nd gen late model so has most of the changes that 3rd gen engines have… According to the folks at Jabiru USA my engine has the best combo of the first 3 generations of the engine. Sensenich prop. MGL electronic flight and engine gauges, Icom radio, Trigg Transponder with ADS-B out. Plane is polished with yellow cowling and tail tips and pants. Plane is mostly stock, not much for mods… I did add a retractable sunshade and an upgraded pneumatic tailwheel assembly from Peter Anson. Plane is in great shape, looks sharp, built very well and engine runs great.
I am not 100 percent committed to selling it, but long story shortened… Years ago, 2006, I bought a Vans RV4 and only kept the plane about a year. I was living above my means and had payments on everything… Sold the RV4 and downgraded to a lowly Titan Tornado! I downgraded just about everything else in my life and over the next 10 to 12 years I was able to get to a point where I was debt free. If I won the lottery I don’t know what I would buy, but I still lust after and want another RV4, its a plane that is within a reasonable budget and really makes me happy. I have been on the upswing airplane wise and the Sonex is 2/3rd of the RV4 experience at half the price. I might just stick with the Sonex as it is really nice and I really enjoy it… But I have a opportunity to buy a RV4 at a decent price right now and depending on how much I can realistically expect to get out of my Waiex I might pull the trigger on the 4.
And a side question…
Where I am located I have to have ADS-B, The RV4 I am looking at doesn’t have it. I really like the Trigg set up I have in my Waiex… I wonder how much less my plane would be worth if I offered it for sale without the Trigg, and I kept that to put in the Vans???
Re: What is my plane worth?
Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 9:47 pm
by MichaelFarley56
Hello Ron, I wish I could give you an exact value but selling a Waiex is tricky right now given a soft market and increasing issues with insurance. Take my two cents for what it’s worth (not that much) but your Waiex, as it sits now, is probably worth $24,000-29,000 if you are in a hurry to sell it. I base that number on what I see on Barnstormers and other online aircraft sales websites. Unfortunately there are a bunch of airplanes for sale which doesn’t help much.
If you are going to remove the Trigg that may lower the value another $1000-2000 from the first estimate.
Again, just my guess! Hopefully others will offer other estimates as well.
Re: What is my plane worth?
Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 8:59 am
by gyroron
Thanks Mike for your input. If I got 30 grand for the plane I would be very happy. I expect I would probably get less, but who knows. Just wanted to see what others would think.
As for the transponder, the plane I am considering ( RV4 ) has a very old school transponder and I would prefer to just slap the Trigg in it I already have, and take a hit on the value of the Waiex, as opposed to buying a different transponder and ADSB solution for the 4. Both planes have limited panel space, but the 4 has even less space and I would want to put a iPad on the panel of the 4, which means I need to have the smallest radio and transponder I can find.
Re: What is my plane worth?
Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:14 am
by MichaelFarley56
Just a thought Ron, and I’m sure you’ve already considered this…
Adding ADS-B Out to the RV could be as easy as installing a uAvionix Echo UAT or one of the wingtip/tail beacon systems (if the airplane has exterior lights). Those would potentially work with the current transponder, not add anything to the panel, and only be $1500 or so. That way you don’t need to tear into the Waiex, maintain its value, and solve the ADS-B issue with the RV.
Re: What is my plane worth?
Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:24 am
by Matt541
Good morning Ron, I’d say Mike’s assessment is pretty spot on. I keep tabs on the market with multiple aircraft types, something to do I guess. Naturally, Jab 3300 models are listed at a higher price point than VW equipped ones. Some people post a higher asking price, but we don’t know what they actually sell for. It seems as soon as you see a nice example priced at $25k+, something similarly equipped gets posted for ~$18k. So it really all depends.
FWIW, when I was still in the market I was instantly taking $2k off the top for aircraft not equipped with ADS-B sight unseen. Some sellers agreed with that, some didn’t. (In the end, I bought a project and it really didn’t matter.) But you might come across others like me in that sense.
I say leave it in, makes your offering more attractive to the buyer. (I actually know one person in the market right now who would need it.) And allows you to post a higher asking price to boot.
I’m very familiar with your airspace, CLT controllers had a field day when I was having issues with a transponder pre ADS-B. (Multiple 360s to “establish my position.”) How is the buyer supposed to get your Waiex out of the Bravo/ Veil? Pay someone to install a new system? Take the wings off and haul it? I know you’ll face the same problem with the RV, but you’d be limiting your market for sure.
And yes the insurance issue is a big one too. $2-3k (and climbing) for the first year Sonex buyer is not an attractive proposition. But I would at least be more comfortable getting dual with the extra power the Jab offers. Just gotta find a CFI with time in type.
Side note, congrats on realizing where you were financially and getting nearly debt free! It takes time and sacrifice and is certainly worth recognizing. It’s all too easy anymore to just add another monthly payment…
Re: What is my plane worth?
Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 12:17 pm
by Scott Todd
Its pretty straight forward to get a waiver to fly out of the airspace without ADS-B so that shouldn’t be a detourant. I’ve also installed a few of the uAvionix echoUAT SkyFYX bundles. Its about the cheapest solution and it provides ADS-B in. It only takes an hour or so and is just basically two antennas and power. Again, I wouldn’t let it be a deal breaker.
But having said all that, many buyers just want turn key. It may help sell. The first step is admitting you won’t get your money back no matter what. The timing is a bit off for yours but I’ll be looking for a flying Jab one in the near future for the sole purpose of providing flight/transition training. I expect to find one for around $30 but would be happy for a bit less without avionics.
Re: What is my plane worth?
Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:07 pm
by 13brv3
I sold an RV-3B about a year ago, and it didn’t have a transponder, much less ADS-B. I had a number of potential buyers who wouldn’t even consider the plane without it. At one point, I thought I was going to have to upgrade it to sell it, but eventually sold it as is for much less than I had expected. My advise (which you should ignore because I’m the worst salesman ever) would be to leave it installed. If the timing of buying and selling permit, it could be a negotiating point, such as $31k as is, or $29k without the Trigg. That’s the best of both worlds for a potential buyer. Good luck.
Rusty
Re: What is my plane worth?
Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:13 pm
by pilotyoung
I want to echo those who say leave the Trig transponder in the aircraft. I bought a Onex with a transponder but no ADS-B. I installed the uAvionix echoUAT SkyFYX bundle. It was an easy install and cost $1400.00. It provides ADS-B out and IN displayed on an iPad, iPhone, Android, and maybe others. I use an iPad with mine and it works great.
Re: What is my plane worth?
Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:17 pm
by GraemeSmith
Quick and dirty valuation I use when looking at EXPERIMENTALS.
The cash cost of the major components. Kit, Avionics and Engine. Less a prorated part if the engine used up.
Tools, fastners, all the little things, blood sweat and tears and labor count for nil.
It’s a rather brutal way of looking at it. But comes close to selling prices I’ve observed.
Re: What is my plane worth?
Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:13 pm
by Scott Todd
I like to watch used airplane prices too and various brands carry different values. Looking at Graeme’s rough numbers of 18,4,18 puts it at $40. Like most people say here and what you see in the market, $30 is closer to what similar Sonex’s sell for. It seems to be a buyers market for our beloved little airplane.
Re: What is my plane worth?
Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:55 am
by gyroron
MichaelFarley56 wrote:Just a thought Ron, and I’m sure you’ve already considered this…
Adding ADS-B Out to the RV could be as easy as installing a uAvionix Echo UAT or one of the wingtip/tail beacon systems (if the airplane has exterior lights). Those would potentially work with the current transponder, not add anything to the panel, and only be $1500 or so. That way you don’t need to tear into the Waiex, maintain its value, and solve the ADS-B issue with the RV.
I have a friend that bought a old Cessna 150 a year or so ago to get his pilots license in. We added the wingtip beacon and it had troubles with the older transponder that was in the plane. ultimately we had to get a radio shop to replace it with a newer one. That wasn’t terribly expensive, maybe 500-600$ total cost.
Problem with doing that on the RV4, is this particular one has a weird shaped non standard, very old looking transponder and if it didn’t work with the beacon, replacing it with a newer one would be more expensive and more work cause a newer one wouldn’t fit the space in the panel where the old one is. In all reality though, I would want to redo the entire panel so I have room to dash mount a Ipad… There is a lower panel between your legs on this plane that has a G meter and a clock, and that would be a good space for the small round Trigg type of radio and transponder…
I am not even sure Ill do anything… Might just keep the Waiex. Or might spend a little more and get a nicer RV4, there is another one I am looking at, more money but already has ADSB and a iPad in the panel and all in all looks turn key and enjoy, no need to tinker or change things around.
Re: What is my plane worth?
Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:21 am
by gyroron
Matt541 wrote:Good morning Ron, I’d say Mike’s assessment is pretty spot on. I keep tabs on the market with multiple aircraft types, something to do I guess. Naturally, Jab 3300 models are listed at a higher price point than VW equipped ones. Some people post a higher asking price, but we don’t know what they actually sell for. It seems as soon as you see a nice example priced at $25k+, something similarly equipped gets posted for ~$18k. So it really all depends.
FWIW, when I was still in the market I was instantly taking $2k off the top for aircraft not equipped with ADS-B sight unseen. Some sellers agreed with that, some didn’t. (In the end, I bought a project and it really didn’t matter.) But you might come across others like me in that sense.
I say leave it in, makes your offering more attractive to the buyer. (I actually know one person in the market right now who would need it.) And allows you to post a higher asking price to boot.
I’m very familiar with your airspace, CLT controllers had a field day when I was having issues with a transponder pre ADS-B. (Multiple 360s to “establish my position.”) How is the buyer supposed to get your Waiex out of the Bravo/ Veil? Pay someone to install a new system? Take the wings off and haul it? I know you’ll face the same problem with the RV, but you’d be limiting your market for sure.
And yes the insurance issue is a big one too. $2-3k (and climbing) for the first year Sonex buyer is not an attractive proposition. But I would at least be more comfortable getting dual with the extra power the Jab offers. Just gotta find a CFI with time in type.
Side note, congrats on realizing where you were financially and getting nearly debt free! It takes time and sacrifice and is certainly worth recognizing. It’s all too easy anymore to just add another monthly payment…
I agree that having ADSB compliance adds value to any plane.
But you only need it for bravo airspace as far as I know… and there is a lot of people flying all over in airspace that doesn’t require it. I suppose from a safety stand point, there are a lot of people with ADSB in, and watching on their Ipad for other traffic, so broadcasting ADSB out even in airspace it isn’t required in could be a good thing for safety sake.
The other consideration though, is who knows what the prospective buyer would want to do with my waiex… Some people would buy it and fly it as is. But then others may want to buy it and immediately change up the panel and change out the radio, instruments, transponder etc… so for that buyer, not having the trigg wouldn’t be a big deal.
Most likely what I would do is price my plane to sell as it sits, and if I were offered much less than my price, I could use removal of the trigg as a bargaining chip. I do that kind of thing on my dirtbike hobby, I buy a super low hour 1-2 year old bike and set it up with a bunch of aftermarket upgrades and then race it in enduro and harescramble races for about a year then sell it and buy another… and when people offer less than my asking price ( which is always a super fair and if anything a low price to start with ) I agree to lower the price with removal of certain parts… For example I use a 1000$ autoclutch ( Rekluse EXP3.0 ) in my bikes, and used these are worth 400-500$ so if I am offered less than asking price I offer to lower my price by 500$ if I keep the Rekluse and install the stock clutch back in. Not sure if that kind of sales approach would work on the plane or not but its a thought.
As far as getting it out of our airspace without the ADSB, well I am not far into the veil. Would be a short flight out… I suppose you could get a ferry permit, or simply break the law. Or maybe I fly it just outside the veil and remove the trigg. I don’t know. Reality is this is just talk for talking sake. I will most likely leave it in the plane, as I can see how not having a transponder at all could make the plane less
attractive.
If you have a friend in the market for a plane, send him my way. While I am hot mentally on buying a 4, I would be more motivated to make him a good deal on my plane. Not knowing how easy it would be to sell the plane is one of the reasons I haven’t just immediately pulled the trigger and bought a 4… I can afford to buy the 4, cash in full, and still keep the waiex and sell it later but I don’t want to sit on the waiex for months and months to sell, I would also need the room in my hangar it would be taking up.
As for insurance… Now that is a topic of discussion for sure. I don’t have insurance on my plane. I didn’t even bother to get a quote. Ive had insurance on a few of the certified planes Ive owned, as its fairly cheap ( was paying around 500$ a year for 20 grand of hull coverage and liability on my Piper Tripacer I had before the Waiex. ) And I had it on my first Vans RV4 cause bending up or totalling a 45 thousand dollar plane that I still owed maybe 35 grand on was frightening ! I paid cash for the Waiex and even though it would be devastating if the waiex was damaged and totaled and I lost my investment, It wouldn’t be the end of the world. To pay 2 grand or more a year for coverage, I figured I would roll the dice and not have it. I know that liability insurance should be the more important priority, but I figure if I caused any kind of real costly damage with the plane, Id probably be dead anyway, so to heck with it. I know a ton of people that fly without insurance, actually I think the majority of the people I know that fly, don’t carry insurance.
Re: What is my plane worth?
Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:24 am
by gyroron
Scott Todd wrote:Its pretty straight forward to get a waiver to fly out of the airspace without ADS-B so that shouldn’t be a detourant. I’ve also installed a few of the uAvionix echoUAT SkyFYX bundles. Its about the cheapest solution and it provides ADS-B in. It only takes an hour or so and is just basically two antennas and power. Again, I wouldn’t let it be a deal breaker.
But having said all that, many buyers just want turn key. It may help sell. The first step is admitting you won’t get your money back no matter what. The timing is a bit off for yours but I’ll be looking for a flying Jab one in the near future for the sole purpose of providing flight/transition training. I expect to find one for around $30 but would be happy for a bit less without avionics.
if your serious about buying one soon, give me a call, I would sell it for less than 30 for sure if I could set up a deal ASAP. 704 seven five six, forty six zero zero
Re: What is my plane worth?
Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:27 am
by gyroron
Scott Todd wrote:I like to watch used airplane prices too and various brands carry different values. Looking at Graeme’s rough numbers of 18,4,18 puts it at $40. Like most people say here and what you see in the market, $30 is closer to what similar Sonex’s sell for. It seems to be a buyers market for our beloved little airplane.
I would be happy as a pig in mud to get 30 grand for it as it sits. I didn’t build it, so I only invested money into this plane…
Re: What is my plane worth?
Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 11:41 am
by Rynoth
gyroron wrote:But you only need it for bravo airspace as far as I know… and there is a lot of people flying all over in airspace that doesn’t require it. I suppose from a safety stand point, there are a lot of people with ADSB in, and watching on their Ipad for other traffic, so broadcasting ADSB out even in airspace it isn’t required in could be a good thing for safety sake.
I need to correct you on this. ADS-B OUT is basically required for all of the same airspace that transponders are/were required. From the FAA:
Under the rule, ADS-B Out performance is required to operate in:
Class A, B, and C airspace.
Class E airspace within the 48 contiguous states and the District of Columbia at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and below 2,500 feet above the surface.
Class E airspace at and above 3,000 feet MSL over the Gulf of Mexico from the coastline of the United States out to 12 nautical miles.
Within 30 nautical miles of those airports identified in 14 CFR part 91, Appendix D. Otherwise known as the Mode C veil.
https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?n … .2.91_1225
Re: What is my plane worth?
Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 12:15 pm
by Scott Todd
As a follow up to the above, you can also get an ADS-B Deviation. Its called ADEPT. It allows a normal transponder equipped aircraft to fly in airspace requiring ADS-B. Its purpose it to transition airplanes not properly equipped.
https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/adapt/
I constantly hear about people thinking they are stuck somewhere. Its just not true. You can buy that dream airplane under the Vail, go online and fill put an application, and then legally fly it out 
Re: What is my plane worth?
Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:24 am
by gyroron
Thanks for the correction. I was under the impression it was only required in Class B airspace or within the mode C veil.
I think I am going to abandon the idea of the RV4 I was looking at without ADS-B anyway… The guy wants no less than 41 grand for it, and its not super nice. By the time I buy a new radio, upgrade the transponder and add ADS-b and redo the panel and do the other upgrades I would want to do, I would have as much money into it as others I see for sale that have all that done already. Ill just pay more and get the better plane to start with.
As for the value of my plane, IDK… There seems to always be a big swing in values of what people are asking for their planes. I see a few others listed on barnstormers for around 30 grand with the 3300 Jabiru. Looking at their planes and comparing to mine, seems like they are a toss up on which one is better. I contacted both sellers and both told me they hadn’t gotten much as far as serious interest in them, mostly tire kickers or low ballers or people just asking stupid questions. Both told me they expected more interest when spring comes. One of the two guys was difficult to talk to… his phone connection was terrible and he sounded like Buffalo Bill from the movie silence of the lambs and not very personable… I never understand how sellers of things can be such terrible communicators and expect people to want to buy their things. Oh well
Re: What is my plane worth?
Posted: Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:02 pm
by Rynoth
gyroron wrote:…By the time I buy a new radio, upgrade the transponder and add ADS-b and redo the panel and do the other upgrades I would want to do, I would have as much money into it as others I see for sale that have all that done already. Ill just pay more and get the better plane to start with.
For what it’s worth, this is probably the same line of reasoning that many(most?) folks interested in buying your Waiex may have. As others have mentioned, the market of interested buyers for your plane is probably a lot wider if you leave the equipment in it.