Waiex B down

General Safety and Training
1

Waiex B down

Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2022 10:37 pm

by Sonex1517

https://www.the-sun.com/news/5966819/co … alifornia/

Re: Waiex B down

Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:41 am

by GraemeSmith

Possibly this one?

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N51 … HLQGsr56RI

Re: Waiex B down

Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:17 am

by GraemeSmith

FAA Accident and Incident Notification(s): Notice(s) Created 10-AUG-22
IDENTIFICATION
Date: 09-AUG-22
Time: 18:06:00Z
Regis#: N51YX
Aircraft Make: SONEX
Aircraft Model: WAIEX
Event Type: ACCIDENT
Highest Injury: FATAL
Aircraft Missing: No
Damage: DESTROYED
LOCATION
City: MAXWELL
State: CALIFORNIA
Country: UNITED STATES
DESCRIPTION
Description: AIRCRAFT CRASHED UNDER UNKNOWN CIRCUMSTANCES AND POST CRASH FIRE, MAXWELL, CA.
INJURY DATA
Total Fatal: 1
Fatal Serious Minor None Unknown
Flight Crew 1 0 0 0 0
Cabin Crew 0 0 0 0 0
Passenger 0 0 0 0 0
Ground 0 0 0 0 0
OTHER
Activity: PERSONAL
Flight Phase: UNKNOWN (UNK)
Operation: 91
Aircraft Operator:
Flight Number:
FAA FSDO: SACRAMENTO FSDO
Entry Date: 10-AUG-22
Updated since entry: No

Serial Number W0051 Status Valid
Manufacturer Name KRAUSE RAYMOND A Certificate Issue Date 06/04/2022
Model WAIEX Expiration Date 06/30/2025
Type Aircraft Fixed Wing Single-Engine Type Engine 4 Cycle
Pending Number Change None Dealer No
Date Change Authorized None Mode S Code (base 8 / Oct) 51460522
MFR Year 2007 Mode S Code (Base 16 / Hex) A66152
Type Registration Co-Owned Fractional Owner NO
REGISTERED OWNER
Name JACK R DAVIS
Street 4406 DON RIVER LN
City SACRAMENTO State CALIFORNIA
County SACRAMENTO Zip Code 95834-7515
Country UNITED STATES
AIRWORTHINESS
Type Certificate Data Sheet None Type Certificate Holder None
Engine Manufacturer JABIRU Classification Experimental
Engine Model 3300 Category None, Reg. Prior to 01/31/08
A/W Date 10/18/2007 Exception Code No

Re: Waiex B down

Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:14 am

by WaiexN143NM

Hi all,
I know this plane , a legacy waiex, unless ray karuse converted it to a B before selling it.
i saw this plane many times at the rio linda ca (sacramento) annual fly in days.
nicely built, jab 3300. very sorry to hear of this. lots of flat farm fields in that area.
jack davis new owner. RIP.

WaiexN143NM
Michael

Re: Waiex B down

Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:19 am

by Scott Todd

He couldn’t have been that new of an owner. The FAA is at least 8 months behind on transferring registrations right now. Unless he had some pull somewhere…

Re: Waiex B down

Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:31 am

by Bryan Cotton

Well, that’s bad news.

Re: Waiex B down

Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2022 3:17 pm

by LarryEWaiex121

First off the plane was indeed a legacy A model and not a B.
The plane probably had about 700 hrs on it and it had been converted from a Jabiru to Camit 3300 shortly after my Camit install in 2016, spring.
Ray spoke well of his Camit and I have no knowledge of any difficulties experienced with it since its install.
The plane was well sorted and flew correctly with no issues.
When I was approaching the finish of my Waiex, that is when I first met Ray online and he generously offered me right seat time to comply with initial insurance requirements. We flew at full gross weight and I was very impressed with the performance.
After almost a 1,000 hrs now in my own Waiex I can tell you that Ray was very proud of the building effort he put forth and is extremely saddened by the loss of his friend that purchased the plane a year or so ago. No one expects this outcome on a very well executed aircraft.
I have no further information on this matter and will respectfully wait for news. Speculation is worthless and not helpful. The matter will get sorted.
Larry Engert
Waiex 121YX
Coeur d Alene, ID.

Re: Waiex B down

Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2022 3:57 pm

by builderflyer

I’m particularly sad to read of this accident as I also know the builder, Ray, as well as his beautiful example of a Waiex. This Waiex was one of the few, maybe the only one, to be licensed as an experimental LSA during a short window of opportunity to do so several years ago. After Ray could no longer fly his Waiex because of eyesight problems, he generously asked me if I’d be interested in having it. My only obligation would have been to fly and maintain it and to make it available to his grandson if he should someday wish to have it for his own. When I hesitated at the idea, Ray said he found two other pilots who would be interested in taking over his Waiex. Ray asked if I would check out one of the pilot’s in my Sonex but that, too, never happened. Ray must be absolutely devastated to hear of this terrible accident.

May the pilot rest in peace,

Art,Sonex taildragger #95,Jabiru 3300 #261

Re: Waiex B down

Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:41 pm

by WaiexN143NM

hi all,
accident now listed on kathryns report. thanks larry and art for the updates.
was always good to see ray and his waiex at the rio linda fly ins.
sad to see this. waiting for the report on who was flying.

WaiexN143NM
Michael

Re: Waiex B down

Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:32 pm

by fastj22

Its a situation exactly like this that keeps me from selling my Waiex. I would be devastated if a second owner died in my creation. I’m sure it wasn’t the build with such a high time airframe.

Re: Waiex B down

Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2022 3:27 pm

by WaiexN143NM

Hi all,
Local media sacramento reporting name of pilot in N51YX crash as jack davis, 73.
RIP.

WaiexN143NM
Michael.

Re: Waiex B down

Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 9:43 am

by builderflyer

fastj22 wrote:Its a situation exactly like this that keeps me from selling my Waiex. I would be devastated if a second owner died in my creation. I’m sure it wasn’t the build with such a high time airframe.

You are absolutely correct to feel that way, John. I can think of several instances where a relatively new second owner of a Sonex has met his demise in the airplane, one even before flying it all the way back to his home airport after purchase. Our airplanes are easy to fly but can be unforgiving to those with a lack of experience in type.

Art,Sonex taildragger #95,Jabiru 3300 #261

Edited

Re: Waiex B down

Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 11:32 pm

by pilotyoung

builderflyer wrote:

fastj22 wrote:Its a situation exactly like this that keeps me from selling my Waiex. I would be devastated if a second owner died in my creation. I’m sure it wasn’t the build with such a high time airframe.

You are absolutely correct to feel that way, John. I can think of several instances where a relatively new second owner of a Sonex has met his demise in the airplane, one even before flying it all the way back to his home airport after purchase. Our airplanes are easy to fly but can be unforgiving to those with a lack of experience in type.

Art,Sonex taildragger #95,Jabiru 3300 #261

Edited

Re: Waiex B down

Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:43 pm

by pilotyoung

I thought I made a post last night about this but it was after I had taken my medicine for the night and I was basically asleep. I apologize if it bothered anyone.

What I wanted to ask is what is it about a Sonex, Waiex, or Onex that would cause several new owners, non-builders, to crash in them? I’m am sure that some of you have opinions on this subject.

I am very safety conscious and am always trying to learn.

Thanks.

Re: Waiex B down

Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2022 3:47 pm

by Bryan Cotton

No idea. The airplane is docile and easy to fly. It is more responsive on the controls, and clean so it picks up speed easily. I have a hard time linking this to most of the accidents though.

Re: Waiex B down

Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2022 5:27 pm

by pilotyoung

I agree. I now have 100 hours in my Onex that I bought and I do not understnad that they would be anything about the airplanes that would cause crashes.

Re: Waiex B down

Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:37 am

by Scott Todd

We need to be careful about how we say things like “its easy to fly” or its “docile”. The Space Shuttle is easy to fly, once you learn how. Sonex’s don’t fly like a Cherokee or Cessna. Sure they are fun, but most of us here are qualified and experienced. Sonex’s have short wings that are straight. Cessna’s and Cherokee’s have lots of washout and limited control throws. We don’t have either. They are great flying little airplanes, once you are familiar.

I’ve done lots of flight reviews, Tail Wheel endorsements, and new airplane checkouts in all kinds of airplanes. The average pilot needs training. At least some familiarity flying different airplanes. Just because someone bought it a year ago and has 30 hours in it, may not mean they are comfortable or proficient. It doesn’t take much to tip stall, drop a wing and then follow it to the ground. The recent STOL crash in Wayne is a perfect example. I fly with ‘experienced’ pilots all the time that make bad decisions and get behind in off-normal situations. Training, training, training. Even solo flying can be used for practice and training.

Re: Waiex B down

Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2022 4:18 pm

by daleandee

Scott Todd wrote:We need to be careful about how we say things like “its easy to fly” or its “docile”. The Space Shuttle is easy to fly, once you learn how. Sonex’s don’t fly like a Cherokee or Cessna. Sure they are fun, but most of us here are qualified and experienced. Sonex’s have short wings that are straight. Cessna’s and Cherokee’s have lots of washout and limited control throws. We don’t have either. They are great flying little airplanes, once you are familiar.

Yulp … this is correct. Many of these accidents happen to second owners that bought a Sonex that was already built. These are fairly hot little planes compared to most GA trainers.

When I was researching information years ago I learned from the Nall reports that most accidents are pilot error (no surprise) but the second cause was engine failure. Many times when the engine quits (or gives indication something is wrong) the pilot either stalls and spins in trying to save the airplane or crashes because they are distracted by the emergency and lose control of the aircraft.

I also believe there is something else to consider. When I went from a nose wheel VW powered Sonex into my 3.0 Corvair powered tail dragger there was not only the different gear and landing techniques to learn … the great increase in power makes a lot of things different in airplane handling, especially on the ground.

I had an opportunity to sell a Sonex years ago to an ultralight pilot that had never flown one. They asked if I’d teach them to land it so they could buy it and fly it home across the country. I refused knowing that this scenario was a ripe for an NTSB report. So we all might do the flying community a favor and let them know that these plans are easy to fly … “when you learn how to do it.”

Re: Waiex B down

Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2022 1:21 pm

by jerryhain

Scott Todd wrote:I fly with ‘experienced’ pilots all the time that make bad decisions and get behind in off-normal situations. Training, training, training.

Completely agree. I mostly do Stemme training now, but the Sonex line is very similar in how pilots learn. They are a bit unique in takeoff and landing and both accelerate quickly with pitch excursions so attitude-based speed control is very important. Easy to T/O and land but different than most GA.

Re: Waiex B down

Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2022 1:30 pm

by Onex107

pilotyoung wrote:I agree. I now have 100 hours in my Onex that I bought and I do not understnad that they would be anything about the airplanes that would cause crashes.

I have 350 hours in my Onex 107. In spite of being faster in cruise, the landing speeds are very similar to my Cessna 150. I highly advise all Sonex pilots to install a commercial or homemade Angle of Attack indicator. It’s the best way to avoid those stalls while turning. High or low speed.

2

Re: Waiex B down

Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2022 1:46 pm

by radfordc

daleandee wrote:

Scott Todd wrote:I had an opportunity to sell a Sonex years ago to an ultralight pilot that had never flown one. They asked if I’d teach them to land it so they could buy it and fly it home across the country. I refused knowing that this scenario was a ripe for an NTSB report. So we all might do the flying community a favor and let them know that these plans are easy to fly … “when you learn how to do it.”

Dale, I was a high time UL pilot when I bought my Sonex. My only Sonex experience was a familiarization flight that consisted of three takeoffs and landings. I bought the plane and flew it home from Detroit to Kansas City. Probably not one of my best ADM moments. And yes, at the end of a long day of flying the last landing was a ground loop. I guess better lucky than smart.

Re: Waiex B down

Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2022 2:03 pm

by XenosN42

This has been said before, but it never hurts to be repeated.

Glider training, or even better a rating will make you a better power pilot. It might take some effort but it’s worth it.

Many Sonex and experimental accidents happen after engine problems or failure. For many power pilots the first thing on the checklist is ‘panic’! For a glider pilot it’s OK I’ve done this before, let’s land.

I’ve been there. Early on flight testing my OneX the engine stopped on short final. (Idle cut off needed adjustment.) in hindsight I did everything right. Training shows. 1. I pulled the mixture to cutoff. 2. Landed the plane. 3. Coasted to a stop. 4. Started the engine and taxied back. All your glider training kicks in. I’d landed without an engine 100s of times. That was just one more time. No panic required.

Re: Waiex B down

Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2022 5:20 pm

by daleandee

radfordc wrote:

daleandee wrote:I had an opportunity to sell a Sonex years ago to an ultralight pilot that had never flown one. They asked if I’d teach them to land it so they could buy it and fly it home across the country. I refused knowing that this scenario was a ripe for an NTSB report. So we all might do the flying community a favor and let them know that these plans are easy to fly … “when you learn how to do it.”

radfordc wrote:Dale, I was a high time UL pilot when I bought my Sonex. My only Sonex experience was a familiarization flight that consisted of three takeoffs and landings. I bought the plane and flew it home from Detroit to Kansas City. Probably not one of my best ADM moments. And yes, at the end of a long day of flying the last landing was a ground loop. I guess better lucky than smart.

Hey Charlie … don’t want to get too far into the weeds but to clarify that particular situation I referred to, I had taken the prospective buyer up for a ride and to let them fly the plane and concluded that they were nowhere near ready to fly a Sonex solo, much less across the country over some high mountain terrain.

Would it have been OK? Possibly … but I have always tried to err on the side of caution and believed then as well as now that I made a wise decision. The eventual buyer was a great fella and a VW mechanic (which is definitely a plus). Took him up to let him fly it and although he hadn’t flown a Sonex before after a few maneuvers he was in the groove and right at home!

Re: Waiex B down

Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2022 8:07 pm

by fastj22

XenosN42 wrote:This has been said before, but it never hurts to be repeated.

Glider training, or even better a rating will make you a better power pilot. It might take some effort but it’s worth it.

Many Sonex and experimental accidents happen after engine problems or failure. For many power pilots the first thing on the checklist is ‘panic’! For a glider pilot it’s OK I’ve done this before, let’s land.

I’ve been there. Early on flight testing my OneX the engine stopped on short final. (Idle cut off needed adjustment.) in hindsight I did everything right. Training shows. 1. I pulled the mixture to cutoff. 2. Landed the plane. 3. Coasted to a stop. 4. Started the engine and taxied back. All your glider training kicks in. I’d landed without an engine 100s of times. That was just one more time. No panic required.

Prior to me getting my commercial glider rating, I had an engine out in my Sonex on takeoff at 200 ft. I had installed an angle of attack gauge and flew the impossible turn using it (lucky me). I didn’t make it back to the runway but I didn’t stall spin either and didn’t damage the aircraft or myself. Now that I have my commercial glider rating, and done the 200ft rope break many times, I know the limitations and think I’ll make the right decision if it happens again. Of course the Sonex has a glide slope of maybe 8:1. A bit different than a glider with 40:1. But the physics are the same. Airspeed, airspeed, airspeed.

I think the cause of these 2nd owner incidents is actually two things. A second owner without much airframe time and gets behind the curve or unfamiliar with procedures. Or its just an experimental with all the oddball stuff we do and make it a more unreliable than a certified aircraft. John Denver had a lot of experience, but very little in the EZ. Also the builder had a goofy fuel valve that probably was OK for him, but not for John. The result was a bunch of foam pieces in the bay.

Re: Waiex B down

Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2022 8:57 pm

by Bryan Cotton

I’m a 300 hour glider pilot. I got my commercial rating too, near the end of my 300 hours. Only stopped because my company shut down our facility and threw my family into turmoil.

Not sure there is any better training than gliders for basic airmanship.

Re: Waiex B down

Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2022 9:02 pm

by GordonTurner

Lot of foam plus a little meat.

It’s both. All of our planes are, compared to 172 example, goofy individual acts of freedom. We spend a year, or two, or ten, building and thinking about the intricacies, then get in them in a very careful thought out manner and very gently start to explore.

Joe, gets in and is either a) oblivious or b) under water trying to find his way up.

If you sell your plane, you owe the next guy a little training, and you are the only one that can provide that. John and Dale are correct, and Dale was spot on to decide the wrong guy wanted to buy his plane.

I don’t have that problem. My sons who helped build it, and will no doubt shortly inherit it, will have to deal with that.

Re: Waiex B down

Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:07 pm

by GraemeSmith

NTSB Preliminary here:

https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/ … 105703/pdf

Re: Waiex B down

Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:11 pm

by Dave Wolfe

To me, it seems like there are a TON of engine failures compared to other fleets. My gut says the carb is the common denominator, with intake icing contributing as well.

New pilots will have a learning curve as to setting the mixture so the engine dont quit.

Jmho without having flown one of these yet

Re: Waiex B down

Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2022 10:38 pm

by Bryan Cotton

Intake icing? Does that happen on an aerocarb?

I’m a new Sonex pilot, but in terms of setting the mixture it doesn’t seem a lot different than a Cessna.

Re: Waiex B down

Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:21 pm

by Dave Wolfe

Thats one of the ‘gotchas’. There isnt anything in the carb itself to ice up, but the entire intake manifold IS prone to icing and nobody discusses that. The per the plans engine (aerovee at least) installation results in some degree of ‘always on’ carb heat. The Jabiru has a shorter intake so its probably not affected as much.

Modify the intake to bring in cooler air to the carb, and your intake icing will get worse.

Re: Waiex B down

Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:44 pm

by GraemeSmith

Dave Wolfe wrote:Modify the intake to bring in cooler air to the carb, and your intake icing will get worse.

AeroVee 2.1, Aeroinjector, modified to get a direct shot of outside air on the filter. In 360 hours to me - never experienced anything resembling carb ice - including 20 hours X-Country last month - at least 18 of which were flown in 80% plus humidity.

I’m NOT saying it can’t/won’t happen. And when I first added the outside air I was extremely careful/cautious about the possibility. But it just has not happened.

–

Thus be interested to hear of proven instances and the equipment setup and environment where it has happened.

Re: Waiex B down

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2022 5:06 pm

by Dave Wolfe

Graeme,

This is the one that comes to mind. I believe this AC had cool air routed to the intake.
http://www.sonex604.com/crash.html

Re: Waiex B down

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2022 5:54 pm

by GraemeSmith

Dave Wolfe wrote:Graeme,

This is the one that comes to mind. I believe this AC had cool air routed to the intake.
http://www.sonex604.com/crash.html

Just to play “What If?” NOT to be a contrarian!

Jeff states:

“the cause of the engine failure was never determined”

A look at historical weather data for the airport he was landing at:

https://www.wunderground.com/history/da … /2009-6-24

Puts the humidity in a range that COULD cause carb ice - though it is top right of the carb ice chart - and if it was the hotter part of the day - then the carb ice probability is very low.

Jeff doesn’t definitively state it. Though the post engine inspection is VERY similar to planes found in fields where carb ice was suspected.

You really need some pretty serious venturi type pressure drop and vaporization to cause the kind of cooling that might form ice. And then it forms in the venturi of a butterfly type carb. A possibility is ice over the filter - but in the warms of the back of the engine compartment - still pretty low. I’d put carb ice at “not proven”.

Another possibility (though Jeff mentions trying to adjust mixture) is overlean while descending without riching up. I know I have to pay attention to that - but I suspect Jeff has more experience than to fall for that!

Or even a mag failure. I just had one of those Briggs and Stratton lawnmower mags quit a couple of weeks ago. Ground Mag check - AOK. Two hours later as the fuel flow ticked up for no reason I could initially determine - an in air Mag Check and “Oh Boy” - one of the manual mags was clearly not playing. I was running (really badly) on two plugs when I dropped out the electric mags. Glad they kept running when I brought them back online and landed!

End of rambling…

Re: Waiex B down

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:18 pm

by Dave Wolfe

Yep, these things are never certain!

Vaporizing fuel, no matter how its done, causes a temperature drop. While aerocarbs dont have the traditional venturi, they still cause a pressure drop at partial throttle which mimic the traditional way carb ice is explained in aviation texts.

The point Im making, is that these types of slide carbs are described as not being able to ice up. But thats misleading, as nobody in these conversations point out that the ENTIRE INTAKE SYSTEM DOWNSTREAM FROM THE CARB is prone to form ice.

Re: Waiex B down

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:37 pm

by Area 51%

If I were a betting man, my money would be on vapor lock, not intake icing.
It’s so common in these planes they even went as far as giving it a “cutie pie” name…“the burps”.
The cause is probably indistinguishable between the two scenarios of icing and vapor lock after the wreckage warms up or cools down.

Re: Waiex B down

Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2022 11:40 pm

by WaiexN143NM

hi all,
kathryns report back online. more narritive posted in the report.
I reached out to a few friends to see if they know anymore about this accident.

a few people mention john denvers accident. i was working in the tower that day(oct12, 97) , faa mry tower/tracon.
he initially did 3 touch and goes off rwy28. L/R. (limit due to airport noise abatement) then flew west over the water off lovers point(point pinos) . was with radar departure control(one floor below the twr cab) . people saw the crash, called 911, who called coast guard and
faa twr. scuttle butt around airport (and later in ntsb report) john walked to a few open hangars got a vice grips to go on fuel valve. but not in correct position, surmise fuel starvation(plane low on fuel), twisting body to reach fuel valve, which was installed behind left shoulder. twisting body left caused rudder deflection which at low altitude caused the plane to dive /roll downward into the water.
i did see the remains of the plane. just small pieces .
very tragic indeed.
a group comes every yr on the day to do a fly over.

fly safe out there

WaiexN143NM
Michael.

Re: Waiex B down

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2024 12:01 pm

by GraemeSmith

Final Report on this issued last week.

No evidence of structural or engine failure.

Ethanol in blood but not conclusively to determine if that was the factor.

Probable Cause - “A loss of control in flight for undetermined reasons that resulted in an impact with terrain”

The ADDITIONAL INFORMATION on the end of the report is worth a read if you bought your plane on the secondary market and did not build it.

Report_CEN22FA375_105703_4_3_2024 11_54_37 AM.pdf
NTSB Final
(739.12 KiB) Downloaded 370 times

Re: Waiex B down

Posted: Wed Apr 03, 2024 10:36 pm

by Bryan Cotton

Good to see you posting here again Graeme.

Sure sounds like a medical issue to me, but per the report they were unable to determine that conclusively. Looking back at our speculation, it seems some or all of it was off.

Re: Waiex B down

Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2024 12:06 pm

by builderflyer

Bryan Cotton wrote:Sure sounds like a medical issue to me, but per the report they were unable to determine that conclusively.

I agree. Personally knowing this Waiex and it’s builder, noting that the NTSB could not find anything wrong with the airframe or engine, and noting that the NTSB could not complete an autopsy on the pilot, I believe this accident was likely do to some form of pilot incompacitation. So sad for the pilot’s family and friends and for the builder of this beautiful Waiex.

Art,Sonex taildragger #95,Jabiru 3300 #261