Understanding Transition Training and a LODA
Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:56 pm
by Sonex Foundation
Understanding Transition Training and a LODA
Your Sonex Builders and Pilots Foundation often fields queries about how to get transition training. This is intended to explain some of the answers to commonly asked questions.
The question of how to get transition training to prepare for your first flight in a newly completed project, or as a non-builder who is purchasing a flying airplane is often a confusing one to answer.
Remember two important facts:
-
A Certified Flight Instructor can charge for their time regardless of the type of airplane that is being flown.
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An experimental aircraft’s Operating Limitations prohibit that airplane from being used for compensation or hire, and this includes flight training.
It is important to understand the purpose of a LODA.
Simply put, a LODA (Letter of Deviation Authority) is written permission from the local FAA FSDO that permits the AIRCRAFT OWNER to charge other people for the use his/her experimental airplane, and normally only for limited flight instruction purposes.
In general, if specific flight training is available in a certified airplane, a LODA will not cover those areas of flight training. As examples, an experimental aircraft renter cannot use the experimental for Private Pilot training or a tailwheel endorsement because those training events can be accomplished in a certified airplane. A LODA will only allow limited training which may include aircraft specific transition training and flight reviews.
Just remember, without a LODA an EAB (Experimental Amateur Built) aircraft cannot be used for compensation or hire, and this includes charging others for flight training.
Unfortunately, at this time there are no known LODA holders for Sonex, Waiex, or Xenos aircraft.
Let’s look at a few examples:
Example 1: I own my Sonex and my CFI is going to give me instruction that I compensate the CFI for.
In this case, no LODA is required.
A CFI can charge for their time regardless of the aircraft being used, and the owner of the airplane is not charging someone else for the use of their airplane.
An owner can use their own experimental airplane for any type of training event they desire.
Example 2: My friend owns a Sonex and my CFI is going to give me transition training dual instruction in that airplane. I will compensate the owner for the use of their airplane and the CFI for their time.
Here, the CFI can charge for their time, but with regards to the aircraft, a LODA will be required on the part of the aircraft owner. If the aircraft owner wants to charge others for the use of their airplane for flight training, they must obtain a LODA.
Example 3: I own my Sonex and am getting a flight review or WINGS training.
No LODA is required since aircraft is not being used for compensation or hire.
Example 4: I am getting transition training for my soon to be completed experimental and I have asked the CFI for a tailwheel endorsement as part of the transition training.
Remember that LODA’s will only cover certain training events. In this example, the student requesting the training would first need to obtain their tailwheel endorsement in a certified airplane before beginning their transition training.
Example 5: A Sonex owner halfway across the country is offering transition training in their airplane and I need to obtain 5-10 hours of time in type for my own insurance needs.
Assuming the owner of the Sonex being used for training has obtained a LODA, they can charge you for the usage of their airplane for specific training events which include transition training and flight reviews. Not all training is allowed however, so prior to beginning the transition training, you would need to obtain all licenses and endorsements necessary to fly the airplane.
This just discusses the FAA regulations. Insurance is an entirely different subject.
Additional information may he found at
http://www.sonexfoundation.com/Obtaining_a_LODA.html
http://www.sonexfoundation.com/Transition_Training.html
http://www.sonexfoundation.com/uploads/ … _Final.pdf
Re: Understanding Transition Training and a LODA
Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:56 am
by lutorm
These seem pretty clear cut to me. The real fuzzy one is: is a CFI allowed to lend me their airplane for free and then get paid for instructing me in it? It would seem to be no different than if it was my airplane, since no money is changing hands for the use of the airplane. But then what prevents the CFI from just charging me a very high rate for this time?
Re: Understanding Transition Training and a LODA
Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:00 am
by MichaelFarley56
What you’re saying is certainly possible if the CFI also happens to be the aircraft owner. Remember a LODA is not required for the CFI to charge for their time, and if the airplane owner is not charging for the use of the airplane then the original aircraft Operating Limitations are not being violated.
These rules are written under the assumptions that the aircraft owner is a different person than the CFI who is providing the training, and that the aircraft owner wishes to charge others for the use of his/her airplane for training purposes. As long as the airplane itself is not being rented, there’s no need for the LODA.
Is that basically what you meant?
Re: Understanding Transition Training and a LODA
Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:14 am
by GraemeSmith
I suspect that if the FAA could show that the CFI charged a different “enhanced” rate when using only the Sonex that they owned - they would argue the CFI was charging for the use of the aircraft. The FAA can be pretty good at spotting “creative” rule interpretations and closing them down. The FAA’s view would be that the plane was in commercial use and should be subject to 100 hour inspections etc. Never mind that it is an Experimental.
–
And more to the point - a CFI who did this without being completely up front with their insurers in advance, is likely to find themselves in a world of hurt in the event of a claim.
Re: Understanding Transition Training and a LODA
Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:55 am
by Sonex Foundation
It’s the insurance loopholes that seem to be the biggest challenge. The LODA rules are fairly straightforward.
We face a real challenge with the loss of the factory T-flight program. We continue to brainstorm ideas and solutions, but none are easy or affordable, much less manageable.
Re: Understanding Transition Training and a LODA
Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:34 am
by Sonerai13
One minor correction here. The original post states…
Sonex Foundation wrote:2. An experimental aircraft’s Operating Limitations prohibit that airplane from being used for compensation or hire, and this includes flight training.
And…
Sonex Foundation wrote:Just remember, without a LODA an EAB (Experimental Amateur Built) aircraft cannot be used for compensation or hire.
This is not entirely correct. The operating limitations issued to amateur-built (and most other) experimental aircraft prohibit carrying persons or property for compensation or hire. Not all compensation is prohibited. For example, a person could be compensated for flying their experimental aircraft in an airshow. This happens all the time. Another example would be, a person could be compensated for taking aerial photographs using their experimental aircraft (as long as a third-party photographer did not hire the flight). There are others, but you get the idea.
But in the context of this thread, when an owner charges a fee for the use of the aircraft by others, the aircraft is indeed carrying persons (and property) for compensation or hire. Thus, when providing an aircraft to be used for transition training for which a fee will be charged for the use of the aircraft, a LODA must be obtained by the owner of the aircraft.
As an aside, it has been determined by the FAA that cost-sharing in an experimental aircraft runs afoul of the operating limitations. Even though it is only partial compensation to share costs, it is still compensation, so is prohibited by the aircraft’s operating limitations even though the regulations allow private pilots the opportunity to share costs.
I know it’s a bit of a nit to pick, but it is a widely spread misconception that experimental aircraft can’t be used at all for compensation or hire, but in fact there are ways. You just can’t carry a third party or their property for compensation or hire. A small but important distinction.
Re: Understanding Transition Training and a LODA
Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:34 am
by GraemeSmith
Sonerai13 wrote:As an aside, it has been determined by the FAA that cost-sharing in an experimental aircraft runs afoul of the operating limitations. Even though it is only partial compensation to share costs, it is still compensation, so is prohibited by the aircraft’s operating limitations even though the regulations allow private pilots the opportunity to share costs.
Not calling you a liar. I never ask folks to pro-rate anyway. But my OL’s contain no such specific limitation about EXPENSES. The do reiterate - FAR 91.319 (a)(2) which prohibits compensation.
But I’ve never read anywhere that legitimate COST SHARE is considered “compensation”. It’s an “expense”..
Best I can find is:
a PPL may prorate
but I can’t find anywhere that says a Light Sport Pilot can prorate.
Might that be the difference? The pilot qualification - rather than the aircraft category…
Got a reference to the Letter of Interpretation on the prohibition on cost share?
Re: Understanding Transition Training and a LODA
Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:52 pm
by Sonex Foundation
Thanks for the reply and clarification Joe!
(I was hoping you’d chime in on this subject!)
Re: Understanding Transition Training and a LODA
Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:21 pm
by Sonerai13
GraemeSmith wrote:Not calling you a liar. I never ask folks to pro-rate anyway. But my OL’s contain no such specific limitation about EXPENSES. The do reiterate - FAR 91.319 (a)(2) which prohibits compensation.
Well, Graham, I think are are calling me a liar. But that’s OK. read on.
Regardless of whether you are fully compensated for your expenses or not, it is in fact compensation. I have posed this this specific question to the FAA, and their HQ people gave me the info I posted earlier.
Regardless of what your personal definition of “compensation” and “expenses” is, the FAA says that if you are receiving money toward the operation of the airplane, you are being “compensated”. They even feel that the flight time you log can be considered “compensation” under certain circumstances. Your opinion, and mine, don’t count. The FAA legal team has spoken.
Now, having said all of that, I know of no case where the FAA has ever violated a pilot of an experimental aircraft solely on the basis of this operating limitation. (Note that I said SOLELY.) They aren’t out looking for violators of this particular limitation. But if you were ever brought under the scrutiny of the FAA for some other issue, they could easily use this one as an “added value” violation. Something to keep in mind.
Re: Understanding Transition Training and a LODA
Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:58 am
by johnnn
As I get closer to finishing my Onex #0179 it has been my hope that Sonex will be reinstating their transition program. Is this wishful thinking? Is Sonex attempting to help us solve this problem or are we on our own? John
Re: Understanding Transition Training and a LODA
Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:06 am
by Sonex Foundation
Hi John
I would not count on any T-flight training from the factory any time soon.
Re: Understanding Transition Training and a LODA
Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:37 am
by Sonex Foundation
I had a great conversation with Joe Norris at EAA yesterday about this. (Thanks Joe!)
The subject of transition training was the first thing your foundation tackled when it was formed, and continues to be an ongoing challenge today. I’m certain it will be in the future also.
Basically, we are in a bad spot here folks.
No one is likely to so much as break even providing transition training when you consider the extra cost of insurance, wear and tear on the aircraft, and Overhead associated with running a transition training program. The numbers do not support the business requirements to be honest.
There are similar transition training programs available, such as Van’s RV-series aircraft. The problem is the same insurance companies that require us to have time in type often refuse to accept “equivalent” time in type such as an RV.
This leaves us all in a bind.
With no transition training program that is Sonex/Waiex/Xenos/Onex specific, and no aircraft available to do the training in, it requires creative solutions to solve.
That’s where we are currently at as a community.
We haven’t given up on a solution, but we have definitely exhausted the current opportunities to resolve this.
Re: Understanding Transition Training and a LODA
Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:25 pm
by radfordc
Whatever you come up with it’s bound to better than my “transition training”. The guy I bought my Sonex from didn’t feel qualified to fly with me in the plane. But, he had a friend who had a Sonex, too. The friend took me up and let me make three takeoffs and landings and pronounced me “good to go”. I then jumped into the plane I bought and flew it 600 miles home. Every landing was perfect except the one at my destination in front of my friends when I managed to ground loop.
We have used the buddy system around here, too. My friend Ted bought a Sonex, and having never flown in one asked if I would let him fly with me. Ted had most of his experience in a Champ which is a great trainer for a tailwheel Sonex…except for one thing. On our first takeoff we taxied into position with 5000 feet of runway that was 200 feet wide. I let Ted make the takeoff and as soon as the plane starting rolling Ted was pushing on the right rudder pedal just like he always did in the Champ. Quickly we were at a 20 degree angle to the runway and heading for the grass. I was pounding on Ted’s leg and yelling “left rudder” over and over, but he was down and locked. Luckily there was enough runway so that we got off before rolling into the bushes.
Re: Understanding Transition Training and a LODA
Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:42 pm
by jerryhain
I have Sonex time and have given training in Sonex aircraft in the past. I have no problem coming to you to train you in your aircraft.
I’m based in Tucson area and doing turbo upgrade on my Waiex.
Re: Understanding Transition Training and a LODA
Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:43 am
by johnnn
I am now flying a rented C172. Most of my time in my 49 years of flying have been taildragger. I have owned two Taylorcraft BC-12d and a C140 in those years. Also flew a Civil Air Patrol Citabria for a while. I’m rusty, I know, and I do need Sonex time. My Onex will not be ready for a while, nevertheless, I don’t want to wait until the last minute. I live only 60 miles West of Oshkosh. Are there any opportunities nearby? John
Re: Understanding Transition Training and a LODA
Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2020 8:43 am
by Tnhelm
I previously instructed in Sonex’s transition training program. I am also in the final stages of building my OneX #137. I would like to touch base with you and compare building notes. I don’t have access to any Sonex aircraft but could give you many hints on handling characteristics of Sonex aircraft. My OneX project is at ATW, 15 miles north of OSH. I would like to connect up with you at some point. tnhelm@gmail.com
Re: Understanding Transition Training and a LODA
Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:23 am
by gcm52
I have a Onex about ready to fly and my insurance company required a “checkout” in a two place Sonex. I was unable to find anyone in the the USA that had a LODA for a Sonex, so it appeared this requirement would be pretty much impossible to comply with. I was able to convince the insurance company to accept a checkout in an RV12 instead. There happened to be a fellow that offers dual in an RV12 in Milwaukee where I live and by coincidence that RV12 had the same Rotax engine and the same Dynon avionics that my Onex has, so it was a valuable experience. I did create a spreadsheet comparing the my Onex vs the RV12 for the insurance company plus provided them with the EAA list of LODA holders showing none for Sonex, and this data may have helped convince them.
Re: Understanding Transition Training and a LODA
Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2020 2:22 pm
by pilotyoung
George,
Is your Onex a nose wheel or tail wheel?
Re: Understanding Transition Training and a LODA
Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:29 am
by gcm52
pilotyoung wrote:George,
Is your Onex a nose wheel or tail wheel?
Nose wheel.
Re: Understanding Transition Training and a LODA
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 5:49 pm
by pilotyoung
I am posting this hoping for a miracle. I am currently talking to a gentlemen about buying his tailwheel Onex. I got a quote from my insurance broker and the insurance company is insisting on a CFI checkout in a tailwheel Sonex. Like the gentlemen a few posts back, I have not been able to find that anywhere. I called the factory and they don’t know of any.
Does anyone know of a place where I can get a CFI checkout in a tailwheel Sonex?
Thanks.
John