Sonex Builders and Pilots Foundation - discussion
Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 4:19 pm
by Sonex Foundation
Hi everyone,
A couple of people have asked why they could not reply to my post about the foundation - we intentionally lock that forum sub section for informational posts.
So I am starting a thread here in General Discussion. Please share your thoughts.
Robbie Culver
President
Sonex Builders and Pilots Foundation
Re: Sonex Builders and Pilots Foundation - discussion
Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:15 pm
by WesRagle
Hi Robbie (et.al)
First I would like to thank you, Mike, and Eric for creating the “Sonex Builders and Pilots Foundation” (the foundation). That in and of itself is quite a feat.
As one who was involved in the Sonex community, then absent for over a decade, and then returned, I was excited to see how far the group had come. The existence of the foundation was strong evidence of the community’s progress. Having said that, for some reason the foundation never “caught on”. As an example, I recently asked the group to suggest reading material I could reference leading up to the first flight of my Onex. Guess what, not one person pointed me to:
Sonex Aircraft
New Pilot Training Guidelines
and
Transition Training Syllabus.
Obviously a lot of thought and effort went into the creation of that document. A rhetorical question, but one I thinks points to the heart of the problem: Why didn’t anyone think to mention it? I had forgotten about it myself and was only reminded of it when I visited the foundation site in response to your “Why a Type Club” post.
So, to the point of this post: I think the foundation was/is an excellent idea, all we need to do is determine why it seems to lack relevance to the average Sonex builder and pilot. I am going to restate the points Robbie made in his post and hope folks will join in with constructive ideas on how these goals can be better met. Anywhere Robbie wrote “can”, I removed it.
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Type clubs provide a social community beyond our awesome online forum.
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Type clubs provide vetted technical guidance.
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Type clubs help builders and second owners ease into their first flights.
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Type clubs allow a seat at the table with the NTSB and FAA.
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Type clubs help develop standards for transition training.
So, lets talk about it.
Thanks,
Wes
BTW, the independent foundation and our independent discussion forum are a large part of what makes the Sonex so much fun. We are not nearly as inbred as that other group with its tightly controlled, for profit discussion forum.
Re: Sonex Builders and Pilots Foundation - discussion
Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:48 pm
by Sonex1517
Thanks Wes
Admittedly, we have been terrible at self promotion. I was always concerned about over doing It.
We have a tool loan program - http://www.sonexfoundation.com/Tool_Loan_Program.php
Speaking of which, who has the taper pin reamer?
We have a tool review page - we need more input - http://www.sonexfoundation.com/Tool_Reviews.html
We have technical articles - http://www.sonexfoundation.com/Technical_Articles.html
Need more of those too.
I saved the Yahoo files, but many are outdated. http://www.sonexfoundation.com/Yahoo_files.html
Safety information, including a phase one discussion - http://www.sonexfoundation.com/Safety___Education.html
I put a Lift Reserve Indicator in my Sonex. Love it. I wrote it up - http://www.sonexfoundation.com/Lift_Res … cator.html
Oh yeah! The transition training guide!
http://www.sonexfoundation.com/Transition_Training.html
We need to be better at updating this stuff and making sure people know about it.
Re: Sonex Builders and Pilots Foundation - discussion
Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:18 am
by Matt541
I’d say perfect timing on reviving the type club, Sport Aviation has an article on them in the new May issue.
I noticed the website got an overhaul a bit ago, and the become a member page is now live.
Are you going to talk about the foundation at all on today’s fly-in? I would like to know more about the different membership levels and what the benefits of each are. To the individual, the foundation, and the Sonex line of aircraft.
Re: Sonex Builders and Pilots Foundation - discussion
Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 8:36 am
by Sonex1517
Hi Matt
It’s not coincidence that EAA ran an article about Type Clubs. I helped the effort to develop the content that went into the article.
Coyle Schwab and Kyle Ludwig are the driving forces behind the Type Club Coalition. Last year we worked to document what is a type club, why they have value, and why pilots should join them. I did an EAA webinar and a presentation at Oshkosh based on this same content.
Our foundation website did get a face lift and the become a member page is again active. It’s my goal to help grow the foundation, start producing newsletters, and find people who have time and energy to help us run it.
I can discuss this today on Zoom, but I also want to ensure those presenting their projects have time to do so. One benefit of the $25 voting membership is “skin in the game.” Voting members help determine the future of the foundation by electing the Board of Directors. The BOD picks the President.
$25 is not a lot of money. We have an annual meeting, typically on the flightline at Oshkosh - this year we will obviously have to see what happens. We have a BBQ at Wayne Daniels 7th Heaven on the east side of Wittman Field during Oshkosh. The cost is usually $5 to $10. I’d challenge anyone to find a better dinner deal at the show, especially one that offers the camaraderie and conversation this one does.
We are always working to see what other value we can offer. Ideas are welcome.
Re: Sonex Builders and Pilots Foundation - discussion
Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:45 am
by sonex1374
The Sonex Builders and Pilots Foundation has three main lines of effort that support its mission: Support Members, Educate Members, and Represent Members. Let me elaborate on each.
- Support Members. The SBPF conducts activities that directly support its members, including the tool loan program, the member BBQ each year at AirVenture, and the Mentor Member program.
Membership grants access to the entire collection of specialized tools that will help you in your building project. These tools include specialty tools like reamers, wing rigging drilling bit sets, fuel tank oops fitting install sets, spark plug time-sert installation sets, etc. A well-equipped builder may own these tools individually, but most of these are used only once or twice in the project’s life. Borrowing Foundation tools reduces cost and simplifies the process for individual builders.
The Annual BBQ at Wayne Danniels’ “7th Heaven” is a premier event. This venue is unique, and simply can’t be replicated by a typical attendee to AirVenture. The Foundation rolls out the welcome mat, does all the shopping and cooking, and can even help transport you to the event, and all this for less than the cost of an ice cream cone and bottle of water at the show. This is real value, and keeps people coming back year after year.
The Mentor Member program is available to match experienced Foundation members with new builders. This program creates a one-on-one support system for new builders. New builders have historically gotten advice from Sonex tech support, or the forum, or from friends and acquaintances they may have. Now, new builders can join the Foundation and request to be paired with a mentor, and they’ll have relevant experience on tap they can turn to. You simply can;t get better support than the mentorship of someone who has done the job before, and they’re a phone call or email away. All free, for the asking.
- Educate Members. The Foundation has several resources designed to build the knowledge and capability of members, including periodic “Shop Talk” newsletters, technical how-to articles that are Sonex-specific, and soon to be rolled out a Lesson-Learned repository. Additionally, the Foundation developed and maintains the Transition Training Syllabus. This document has been a collaboration between experienced flight instructors, Sonex Aircraft and insurance underwriters, and is the only document of its kind that both lays out a game-plan to follow for a new pilot or owner, as well as gives you negotiating power with your insurance company. We’ve seen remarkable results over the past 2 years where members have been able to get insurance with drastically reduced PIC requirements when using the syllabus. In that regard alone, the syllabus could be worth hundreds of dollars in saving to you, not to mention making you a safer more proficient pilot!
The Foundation is working on creating a repository of vetted, technically acceptable lessons-learned information and best-practices. These will enable new builders to data-mine the archive in an efficient way to better identify areas that may cause them problems in their build, and allow them to minimize the impacts of those items. The forum has been and will continue to be a wealth of information and tribal knowledge, but the Foundation will compliment the forum with specific, focused and distilled technical information, that is easy to understand, and easy to implement. Watch for more on this topic, as well as a call-to-action to populate this repository.
- Represent Members. The Foundation represents the interests of Sonex owners in a recognized, authentic way. As an industry organization the Foundation can speak with authority in a way a single owner or person cannot. When the NTSB or FAA rally the troops for a conference or working group regarding our segment of aviation, the Foundation gets an invite. An individual owner would never have this level of access. The Foundation carries this burden for the benefit of all its members, and without it the Sonex community is fragmented and individually irrelevant.
With a better understanding of the Foundation’s mission, goals and lines of effort, I hope that every builder and pilot joins the foundation. Membership is free at the basic level, and voting membership is affordable at $25 per year. These funds provide the resources to keep the Foundation running, and allow it some modest expansion of services. A person might ask themselves what benefit they derive by joining, and I think that’s a fair question. The Foundation continues to ask that question and look for ways to deliver value. Part of that discussion is to right-size the benefits delivered at each membership tier. That discussion is ongoing as well.
I challenge every Sonex builder, owner or enthusiast to support your Foundation and join as a voting member. Your support and dues are the life-blood needed to keep the Foundation viable and engaged. Think back to how others have helped you get to where you are, whether in building your project, flying and maintaining it, or simply helping achieve a fuller and richer enjoyment of aviation thru the connections you’ve made thru your Sonex activities. This is your chance to contribute, to give back or pay it forward, and to safeguard the future of the Sonex community so our hobby remains on firm footing and our community remains vibrant. Support aviation, support our favorite aircraft designs, and support the future!
Jeff
Re: Sonex Builders and Pilots Foundation - discussion
Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:13 pm
by WesRagle
.
Re: Sonex Builders and Pilots Foundation - discussion
Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 12:10 pm
by SonexFactoryTech
WesRagle wrote:Hi Guys,
I think that the individual builder sometimes feels under represented and irrelevant while dealing with our favorite little airplane company, Sonex LLC. Most of my professional life was spent in the engineering department of a small company. A different field but still a small company with many products and limited resources. There was one big difference, much of our income came from military contracts. Products were sold in larger quantities under contract deliveries. As a result, the individual customer had more say when it came to fulfilling the contract. Believe me, when Colonel Jessup decided to pay a visit to voice his displeasure with a particular product he had our full attention. With Sonex LLC all sales are to individuals. Individually no one has much pull with the company.
Now believe me, the last thing I want is to harm Sonex LLC in any way. But I think a properly executed strategy would allow the foundation to increase completion rates, improve the Sonex customer experience (thereby helping Sonex LLC), and maybe irritate the company just a little by keeping known problems visible until they are dealt with and by providing workarounds in the interim.
So, is this worth discussing, would it be worth the effort, or should we just accept the status quo (Example: http://sonexbuilders.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=5294&start=20#p40377)?
Thanks,
Wes
Sonex Builders,
(Disclaimer: The use of the word “you” in this post is not directed at Wes. This post is my personal expression and was not approved by anyone in management at Sonex Aircraft. I will not be reading or responding to any comments.)
Before I swung by this group to see what the day’s topics were I made a pass through the tech support email to see what may have come in since my last check, which was last night (Saturday) at 8 PM. Occasionally when I answer tech support email on a Sunday, or Christmas Day, or Easter, or New Year’s Eve, or while I’m on vacation, or late on a Saturday night, someone notices and comments. I do it because I can, not because it’s required of me. It helps me keep up with the volume and I know it gets a builder back to the building. But I’ve been doing it for nearly 18 years so I guess its become part of the status quo that everyone has just accepted.
You’ll be hard-pressed to find someone who wants every builder to succeed more than I do. Why? Not only because I work for Sonex Aircraft but because before I worked for Sonex Aircraft I built one and I know the joy that comes from the process and the satisfaction that comes from completion. I know how much time goes into a project, how much money, and that many builders have spent a lifetime dreaming of building an airplane before they found themselves in a position to fulfill that dream. When someone buys a kit form Sonex Aircraft the purchase transactions is over fairly quickly. The building process can go on for years or decades. The project may pass to another builder or five other builders. It may get botched together in ways you can’t imagine and the 4th owner doesn’t recognize. I’m there for every question.
To be sure, the ability to post here does not make anyone an expert, nor are the posts vetted in any manner. I also know how much damage the non-vetted posts on this forum create. I deal with it weekly. Shattered confidence in the ability to build the product, shattered confidence in the ability to fly the product, shattered confidence in the product. Hundreds of posts, years of opinions, sifted through, most dealing with problems one person or another has had, many suggesting changes that aren’t necessary. Makes me wonder how they could be scratch built 22 years ago, while newcomers are wondering if a problem with a kit part, one they view as insurmountable, from 8 years has been corrected. This past week I had an email that referenced the “bad press” the AeroVee turbo has received. Not recalling any bad press, I asked if he meant comments on this forum. He confirmed that this forum was the source he was referencing.
Irritated? Yes, I’m irritated. Because I’m not a “company,” I’m a person. Mark is a person, Heather is a person. Steve is a person. John and Betty, yes, they are people too. While I type this from my home on a Sunday morning there is a very good chance John is at the hangar and Mark and Heather will also be turning on their work computers at some point today. John has the vision, Mark, Heather, and all the staff at Sonex Aircraft help them come to fruition. I’m the person that helps people move forward on their project, toward their dream, no matter what may be slowing them down; a faulty part, an incorrect dimension, most often an error of their own making, the learning of a new skill, or poor advice they received from someone (or dozens of someones) who maybe built an airplane start to finish and maybe did it correctly themselves.
The factory isn’t the bad guy. We didn’t make it through 22 years of business, the attacks on 9/11 that shut aviation down, the recession of 2008, the continuing decline of homebuilding and the pilot population, and now this Covid crisis by being a company that doesn’t care about its customers or products. But that doesn’t mean we need to accommodate every wish of every customer. I don’t know any company that does.
What’s not needed is a coalition to irritate Sonex Aircraft. What’s needed is everyone supporting everyone and the recognition that this is homebuilding. No two builders will ever have the same experience because no two bulders have the same skills or the same vision of what their completed aircraft will be. You want a sliding canopy? Put one on, but don’t evangelize that it is so much better than the swing-over design. It may be for you but that doesn’t mean it needs to be adopted by everyone. If you purchased a used AeroCarb and then purchased a used AeroInjector and couldn’t get either to work but never contacted the factory for help, that’s on you, stop trashing the product to everyone else. Differential brakes? Go for it, but don’t tell people the direct link tailwheel doesn’t work. It worked for me for 500 hours. An inability to read blueprints is not a product flaw, it’s a skill to learn. A solid tailwheel is not inferior to a pneumatic one. I could go on but we finally have a warm, sunny day here in Oshkosh and I’ve given too much of it to this post.
Kerry Fores
Scratch Builder, Metal Illness, AirVenture 2006 Plans Built Champion
Re: Sonex Builders and Pilots Foundation - discussion
Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 1:53 pm
by chris
Kerry and SonexBuilders.net
I would like to point out that SonexBuilders.net is also not “the bad guy.”
Everyone has one common goal, which is to safely build and fly airplanes.
Everyone here on SonexBuilders.net, everyone at the Sonex Builders and Pilots Foundation, and everyone at the factory share in that same goal.
Divisive language and suggestions to anything other than that is counter productive to the goal of safely building and flying Sonex aircraft.
Sometimes that language comes from members on this forum, sometimes that language comes from factory representatives.
There are thousands of people on these forums. Myself and the moderators cannot confirm the accuracy of any of the information that individual people post here.
That is the nature of internet forums. I personally believe that it is a great thing that so many people want to come together to discuss our hobby. I think the forum is a valuable resource and has done far more good than “damage.”
Any questions should always be verified through the factory if you are not certain. You must keep your personal filters on high level of skepticism for anything you see posted on a public forum.
Hopefully we can all work together in the future towards the common goal.
Re: Sonex Builders and Pilots Foundation - discussion
Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 2:37 pm
by pappas
I have always had timely and reasonable responses from Kerry and Mark to my tech questions. I have completely built 2 Waiex’s. That does not mean that they always told me what I wanted to hear, but they always seemed to tell me what I needed to hear.
The first position I take when something mechanical is not going right is, “what did I mess up”. That is usually the correct position. Since 2006, I have sent in numerous heads up as to inconsistencies or missing or erroneous call-outs in the plans. Sonex has always followed up with corrections and updates when needed. I think they are very responsive.
I love being able to customize minor aspects of my aircraft builds to suit me because I have preferences that are different than other builders. Tires, tail wheel, avionics, upholstery, panel layout, stuff like that. However, I realize that I am not an aeronautical engineer. I can not and should not change any major airframe items from the factory specs. I am not really an airplane builder, most of us are not. I am an aircraft assembler. I assemble kits. Sonex produces kits.
I think the people there do a pretty good job for such a small company in such a difficult industry. How many of these “kit manufacturers” are no longer answering phones, or even have phones? I built 5 planes, one manufacturer ceased ops long ago, one has changed hands many times and is no longer as it was, and only 2 are operating as a viable business, Vans, and Sonex. A lot of guys don’t even have a factory to call for anything. Sonex, Kerry, Mark, Heather, Steve, and John have done what few others have. After 20 + years, they are still helping us have fun with our leisure hobby. Thanks guys.
Re: Sonex Builders and Pilots Foundation - discussion
Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 3:46 pm
by WesRagle
.
Re: Sonex Builders and Pilots Foundation - discussion
Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:26 pm
by Sonex Foundation
The point of this post was not to start an argument. I think everyone means well, and we all have the same goal. Safety and enjoying these fantastic, fun aircraft!
The foundation and the forum never replace the requirement to contact technical support first when you have a problem or a question.
But we can, and should all learn from each other.
Please. Let’s focus on the original point. What our foundation can and should do, and how.
I’m about to go fly mine. Right now.
Thanks
Robbie
Re: Sonex Builders and Pilots Foundation - discussion
Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 7:14 pm
by WesRagle
Sonex Foundation wrote:The point of this post was not to start an argument.
Sorry, my fault. Sometimes I post as if we were sitting in the living room brain storming and not on a public forum.
I apologize. Bad form. I’m going to delete my posts hoping to reset the discussion.
I do detest drama.
Sonex Foundation wrote:Please. Let’s focus on the original point. What our foundation can and should do, and how.
I would have found it helpful if I could have gone to a model specific page on the foundation web site and found sage advise concerning potential problems and suggesting specific construction sequences that would prevent builder induced frustration.
Thanks,
Wes
Re: Sonex Builders and Pilots Foundation - discussion
Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 10:09 pm
by sonex1374
SonexFactoryTech wrote:Before I swung by this group to see what the day’s topics were I made a pass through the tech support email to see what may have come in since my last check, which was last night (Saturday) at 8 PM. Occasionally when I answer tech support email on a Sunday, or Christmas Day, or Easter, or New Year’s Eve, or while I’m on vacation, or late on a Saturday night, someone notices and comments. I do it because I can, not because it’s required of me. It helps me keep up with the volume and I know it gets a builder back to the building. But I’ve been doing it for nearly 18 years so I guess its become part of the status quo that everyone has just accepted.
Kerry,
On behalf of every Sonex builder and pilot I know, please accept my thanks for everything you do for us! I really mean it. You are in the trenches every day, doing the heavy lifting so we can all enjoy our little corner of the experimental aviation world. We are lucky to have you on board, and I for one don’t say thank you enough.
Keep up the good work, and know that we truly do appreciate you and the rest of the team at Sonex Aircraft!
Jeff
Re: Sonex Builders and Pilots Foundation - discussion
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:54 am
by GraemeSmith
I happened to send Robbie a longish email before he started this thread. Rather than repost the whole thing (because many of my observations have already been covered) I’ll throw in these points:
Original Email to Robbie wrote:Foundation Identity
It’s diluted and I’m not 100% clear what is what.
sonexfoundation.com – The foundation. Right? I paid to be a voting member. But I’m not clear when dues are due again. I’m 99.9% ceetain – that apart form getting a PayPal receipt – I never heard from the FOUNDATION again. It seems you can get the benefit of the whole Foundation site without paying – except posting in the forum?
sonexbuilders.net – The Forum – hosted and paid for by Chris (?). Is this a separate venture or part of the foundation? I spotted the little blurb in the corner asking for donations to keep the forum hosting going and sent him some small $$ a while back. So the forum is not the foundation?
sonexaircraft.com – The factory
Facebook Group – just a bunch of Sonex builders/owners by the look of it.
The value proposition
Pilots being notoriously cheap – they go for anything free. So a real “threat” to the foundation if you like is the Facebook Group – however imperfect a medium it is. So the Foundation part has to offer “value” for the small $$ it charges. I know the C150/2 club has been facing this issue – but they seem to be steadily recruiting since it was bought out and they revamped everything to bring it up to date. Kirk would know better about their membership numbers – but the fresh look seems to be helping.
So what does being a foundation member get me that I can’t get for free anyway? I don’t have an answer to this – except that all “clubs” are facing this sort of issue with the proliferation of “free” stuff on the Internet.
A direction?
There is a strong focus on building. And so there should be. If you can’t get your plane to the start line – you are not going flying.
A PERSONAL view is there then needs to be some additional focus on the “fun” of going places and going flying. (The sort of thing I’ve thrown the occasional post up about in the General section) because while we all like to tinker and build and maintain – you do need to fly too!
Which leads (in my mind) to even MORE emphasis on safety and currency. A reason I did not build and bought built was because I like to fly and 3-4 years down time building would leave me so rusty – I would never dare fly the plane! Even with some significant rust knocking. Wes’s current thread about getting current again is to be commended and advertised and celebrated.
There seems to be a few secondary owners (like me) who are now popping up as they buy built planes and looking for transition training. And it seems to be very hard to get anything that will satisfy the insurers. I got very lucky that Mike Smith knew a fairly close CFI who could help me. But I still was flying in a gray area as I flew solo up to Fitchburg for each lesson with him till I got my 5 hours in that the insurers wanted. Seems we need to get some sort of insurer agreement as to what is a suitable “similar” aircraft to get training in. Not may left turning props out there though for the AeroVee crowd……
But making transition/insurance issues easier will help the secondary market. And with a decent secondary market – then there is a better chance of growing the type.
And as the factory doesn’t offer the transition training anymore – then?
And more to the point
Not here to bitch? What can I do to help?
Re: Sonex Builders and Pilots Foundation - discussion
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:11 am
by Sonex Foundation
Thanks Graeme
Here’s how everyone can help.
We need someone to take over website maintenance. Heck, it can use a facelift. This is not a big job, and long term its a little bit here and there. This person has to have some web skills.
I would love to have a new logo. Anyone have graphics design skills?
We need newsletter articles. It seems as if everyone loves the newsletter. But it needs content. That could include things you have done and places you have gone in your airplane.
One person in charge of maintaining, tracking and insuring the return of tools. (per David A’s excellent suggestion)
This is just off the top of my head on a Monday morning.
Robbie Culver
President
Sonex Builders and Pilots Foundation
I thought that information had to be there. I kept searching and poking around but never noticed the “Site Map” selection.