Sonex as a first plane?
Posted: Sun May 03, 2020 2:35 pm
by KushFlier
Curious where the opinions are on this. For a very low-time pilot just coming off of PPL license (under 100 PIC hours). --EDIT: I should say, I’m not quite there yet. Still a few hours shy of my PPL as of this post-- Is a Sonex an appropriate first plane (with sufficient transition training), or is it advisable to build time in something like a C152 or PA28 first? Follow-up to that question, if the Sonex is a handful for a newly-minted pilot, what in your opinion would be a safe total PIC time to begin transitioning to a Sonex?
Re: Sonex as a first plane?
Posted: Sun May 03, 2020 2:57 pm
by tx_swordguy
I think it is a fine 1st time owner plane. If TW you definitely need some TW training however I would not consider it squirrely at all. I have zero tri=cycle experience so cannot comment on its handling in that set up. TW version is very stable on rear wheel however it is very light so you need to keep the stick back and keep air flow/ weight on the TW when taxiing or you can skid. It is not an extra 300 so don’t be afraid of it. As a TW you cannot see over the front end when landing but if you get some training and relax I think you will be fine. My biggest issue going from an avid flyer TW to the sonex was I could see well over the front of the Avid and not so in the sonex. Once I figured out the site picture I was looking for (same one as taxi) I did much better. Just don’t try and save a bounce/ bad landing UNLESS you have thousands of feet remaining on the runway. My 2 cents
Re: Sonex as a first plane?
Posted: Sun May 03, 2020 3:41 pm
by KushFlier
Thanks, that make sense. Appreciate the input. I’m starting my build soon - tail kit is on the way - and it’ll take me a year or more to build it anyway, so I’ll have some time to build hours. But even then - just curious if the general consensus is to stick to a trainer-type plain like a Cherokee or Cessna before transitioning over once I have XXX hours built up. Though from my reading, and by your post as well, it seems that with a bit of care & attention it’s still accessible for low-time pilots.
Re: Sonex as a first plane?
Posted: Sun May 03, 2020 4:04 pm
by GordonTurner
My recommendation is forget everything you learned and start over in the Sonex.
Re: Sonex as a first plane?
Posted: Sun May 03, 2020 4:53 pm
by GraemeSmith
A way to look at it is that - back in the day - they were all tail wheel and you couldn’t see over the nose of most of them - and much worse than a Sonex. So sure - why not. If you build as a trike - and use an AeroVee - you will only have to learn the opposite foot for P factor.
If you are building T/W - and just learning stretch your wings - just get some airtime and ADM and going out and getting lost and having a few burgers with folks. Then get the T/W training. I don’t know 100% for sure - but of you are out of Poughquag in NY - I think at MMK just over the border in CT - the school has a tailwheel to learn in. And let me ask a friend there - because I’m pretty sure he worked with a freelance T/W instructor.
At one level - you are never as proficient as the day you pass your checkride. You are going to get rusty when building. It’s WAY more important to knock the rust off - might as well do it and get the T/W endorsement as part of it. I don’t see why you would not succeed.
Re: Sonex as a first plane?
Posted: Sun May 03, 2020 6:08 pm
by KushFlier
Appreciate the input! That’s great advice. This will be a TW build, TW training is 100% in the plans. I was actually looking around for an instructor (casually for now, still some time away), but that’s good to know there might be one within just an hour or two drive.
Re: Sonex as a first plane?
Posted: Sun May 03, 2020 7:25 pm
by sonex1374
KushFlier,
The Sonex is not a difficult plane to fly, but it is lightweight with sporty handling. Experience in a heavier, more sedate GA training aircraft will not replicate the Sonex’s handling characteristics. If you have a couple hundred hours of total time, adapting to this difference might not be a problem. However, getting some time in something similar is a really good idea, especially as a low-time pilot.
We advocate getting some sort of transition training for all new Sonex pilots. That might mean flying with a CFI in a Sonex, a few hours of intro flight time in a friend’s Sonex, or flying a plane with similar handling characteristics. The Sonex Builders and Pilots Foundation Transition Training Syllabus covers this approach in detail.
Although it’s impossible to make a generalization about all pilots and how they’ll find the Sonex as a first plane, I think most Sonex pilots would agree that a typical pilot will very quickly and easily settle into a Sonex after just a few flights. My personal opinion is that after transition training I don’t think you’re any more at risk in a Sonex than any other airplane. If you’re proficient enough to pass you’re checkride, you’ve got all the basics needed for a Sonex.
Jeff
Re: Sonex as a first plane?
Posted: Sun May 03, 2020 11:01 pm
by WesRagle
KushFlier,
My opinions:
KushFlier wrote:Is a Sonex an appropriate first plane (with sufficient transition training)
Yes.
KushFlier wrote:if the Sonex is a handful for a newly-minted pilot
It’s not. Not after some transition training. I still remember an RV-6 (tail wheel) pilot taxiing up to my hangar to talk. He looked at my conventional gear Sonex and said “I’ll bet that thing is a hand full”. I was honestly confused by the comment. All I could think to say was “No. Not really.”
KushFlier wrote:what in your opinion would be a safe total PIC time to begin transitioning to a Sonex?
You are ready as soon as you earn your PPL. Total time is secondary to currency and proficiency. Of course you will need a TW endorsement for a conventional gear Sonex.
Best of Luck,
Wes
Re: Sonex as a first plane?
Posted: Mon May 04, 2020 7:36 am
by gyroron
I think it is going to be a eye opener for you if this is the first thing you fly other than a Cessna 152 / 172 or typical piper Cherokee / warrior type of plane.
The Sonex is not nearly as stable. Most of the planes you would fly to get your PPL in, if you upset the airplane, you can let go of the controls and it will right itself. These planes want to return to straight and level on their own. The Sonex is neutrally stable… If you let go of the controls, it will not stay put. This is not a terrible thing, but it is different from how a typical GA plane flies.
The Sonex will also take much more attention to how it is flown on the landing pattern. It is very easy to come in too fast, and the plane will float and float down a runway. On a short runway, you may never get it on the ground if you come in a little too hot.
I wouldn’t say a Sonex would be a bad choice for someone who just got their PPL, but you will find its a very different plane and will likely need some transition training for sure.
Re: Sonex as a first plane?
Posted: Mon May 04, 2020 10:30 am
by builderflyer
As is usually the case, Jeff’s comments, as well as others are right on. Under calm wind conditions, the Sonex is as easy to fly, or easier, as any other airplane you will ever fly. But as the winds become increasingly gusty, the Sonex (or any airplane with a really light wing loading) becomes more challenging to handle. For this reason, I suspect that those pilots who have roots in the ultralight community may have an easier time adapting to the Sonex than those who only flew airplanes with significantly higher wing loadings. Nevertheless, many low time pilots have quickly adapted to the Sonex “feel” and so will you with a proper introduction. And once you are checked out in a Sonex, you will find the other aircraft you used to fly “oh so boring”.
Art,Sonex taildragger #95,Jabiru 3300 #261
Re: Sonex as a first plane?
Posted: Mon May 04, 2020 11:39 am
by GraemeSmith
Wing Loadings at maximum gross - standard spec aircraft:
C150 - 10 lb/sq ft (1,600lb)
Sonex - 11.2 lb/sq ft (1,100 lb)
Cherokee - 13.5 lb/sq ft (2,150lb)
C172 14 lb/sq ft (2,450lb)
Of course there is more to it than just the wing loading - because a C150 is NOT sportier feeling than a Sonex. Maximum gross and power loading has something to do with it too!
There is a Student pilot who owns a Cherokee tied down behind me. Gave him a ride before we started to socially distance. I would say it took him 15 mins to get the fundamentals and within 30 mins he was doing airwork to PPL ACS. Reasonably calm day without too many bumps. He is a “good stick”. His comment was that the all round visibility really helped him get it. It was still my landing though! 
Re: Sonex as a first plane?
Posted: Mon May 04, 2020 2:38 pm
by builderflyer
Yes, wing loading isn’t the only factor. Certainly, inertia is very important, too. But if one is only going to consider one factor, wing loading isn’t to be ignored when dealing with turbulence or a wind gust when landing.. When I fly my Sonex, alone and with a half tank of gas, my wing loading is only about 9 psf but the good news is that the controls are much more responsive than, say, a Cessna 150. The greater challenge is not overcontrolling when making corrections in response to a gust of wind.
Art,Sonex taildragger #95,Jabiru 3300 #261
Re: Sonex as a first plane?
Posted: Mon May 04, 2020 4:04 pm
by Rynoth
builderflyer wrote:Yes, wing loading isn’t the only factor. Certainly, inertia is very important, too. But if one is only going to consider one factor, wing loading isn’t to be ignored when dealing with turbulence or a wind gust when landing.. When I fly my Sonex, alone and with a half tank of gas, my wing loading is only about 9 psf but the good news is that the controls are much more responsive than, say, a Cessna 150. The greater challenge is not overcontrolling when making corrections in response to a gust of wind.
Art,Sonex taildragger #95,Jabiru 3300 #261
I think this has less to do with wing loading and more to do with static/dynamic stability. The same reason that a Sonex is more “nimble” is why it’s also more feisty in gusty winds. It’s also the reason it’s more fun to fly, and isn’t a great IFR platform.
Re: Sonex as a first plane?
Posted: Mon May 04, 2020 10:28 pm
by N190YX
As far as learning to fly a Sonex/Waiex, it is like any airplane, fly it by the numbers, and learn tailwheel procedures (force the tail up on takeoff or let it come up on its own, wheel landings versus 3 point landings). I took instruction in a Sonex taildragger when the factory was offering it. My tail dragger background was in renting Piper Cubs and my first airplane was a Cessna 170B. The Cessna 170 was, frankly, squirrelly in ground operations, the Piper Cubs less so but you had to pay attention on takeoff and landing. Tail draggers are unstable because the center of gravity is behind the main gear so when the airplane starts to turn, the center of gravity wants to spin the tail around to the front, called a ground loop. The Sonex/Waiex (Zenos also?) have positive tail wheel steering by push pull rods, not the springs which allow the tail wheel to swivel like on my Cessna and Piper Cubs. So I found the Sonex handled like a nosewheel airplane when the tailwheel was on the ground, positive steering, and the rudder was powerful enough for directional control when the tail wheel was off the ground during takeoffs and landings. No need for separate right and left toe brakes. In another thread here I read about builders considering changing to castering tailwheels. This may result in what I found to be a very stable configuration to one that may be less stable. Consider the pros and cons of such a change. What are you gaining at the expense of a less stable ground handling airplane?
Re: Sonex as a first plane?
Posted: Tue May 05, 2020 7:23 am
by GraemeSmith
N190YX wrote:In another thread here I read about builders considering changing to castering tailwheels. This may result in what I found to be a very stable configuration to one that may be less stable. Consider the pros and cons of such a change. What are you gaining at the expense of a less stable ground handling airplane?
Of course the benefit is a dramatically reduced turning circle for taxi operations - but your noted loss of stability if the wheel breaks away on a t/o or landing.
What we need is the P51 setup!
P51 Pilot Notes wrote:Taxi with stick slightly aft of neutral. This will lock the tail wheel. In the locked position the tail wheel may be turned 6 degrees to the right or left by use of the rudder pedals. For sharp turns, push stick forward of the neutral position to allow the tail wheel full swiveling action.