sight picture (over the nose)
Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2023 9:21 pm
by BRS
My sonex is the first and only one that I’ve flown in. I was wondering if the nose sight picture, on others, is like mine in level flight. Can’t really see a thing in front of me (I’m 5’10) when sitting in the middle seat (between the cushons) and flying straight and level.
First Pic, view at apx level attitude with camera held at eye level (bumpy day)
Click to see full image
Second Pic, slight desent (170 fpm shown)
Click to see full image
Re: sight picture (over the nose)
Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2023 11:27 pm
by Bryan Cotton
Same issue here
Re: sight picture (over the nose)
Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2023 12:43 am
by daleandee
Higher airspeed will bring the nose down a bit. Mine looks about like your second photo but when I fill the tank and the CG is forward I can feel it and see it …
Dale
3.0 Corvair/Tailwheel
Re: sight picture (over the nose)
Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2023 9:41 am
by XenosN42
The sight picture from my OneX is about the same.
Re: sight picture (over the nose)
Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2023 9:49 am
by builderflyer
Brock, to me your top photo looks like my Sonex nose in a climb. In your bottom photo, the nose looks to be a little high for a normal cruise. That’s sitting in the left seat, standard, not lowered.
Art,Sonex taildragger #95,Jabiru 3300 #261
Re: sight picture (over the nose)
Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2023 12:07 pm
by jaflint
I second Art’s observation, from a lowered left seat pilot perspective.
Re: sight picture (over the nose)
Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2023 10:46 pm
by BRS
jaflint wrote:I second Art’s observation, from a lowered left seat pilot perspective.
Well then, I might just have to try flying from the left one of these days. Have only flown from the center thus far. Might just double check the flaps rigging, after taking another picture while in smooth conditions.
Thanks for all the input.
Re: sight picture (over the nose)
Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2023 12:20 am
by sonex892.
As Dale mentioned the higher the speed the lower the nose. I fly a 3300 Jab and it is noticably higher on the nose when flying at 100kts compared to 130kts. So probably cant really compare the sight picture of a 120 HP plane to an 80HP plane.
If you think it is higher than normal. You could check the rigging instructions in the plans and double check your wing incidence is correct and also check the ailerons and flaps are set up correctly
Re: sight picture (over the nose)
Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2023 12:35 am
by gammaxy
I fly from the left with a 80 HP Sonex A. My headset occasionally bumps the canopy. Definitely would consider a center stick and fly from the middle solo if it worked with the lowered seat. My sight picture is much closer to the second picture than the first. The first seems closer to what I see when I’m climbing at 70-80mph. I typically lower my nose to where I can see the horizon and for engine cooling once I’m around pattern altitude. All this could just be that my eye level is a little higher, but I don’t feel like I sit particularly tall (I’m about 6’1" though).
Re: sight picture (over the nose)
Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2023 9:48 am
by rbarber
All up weight and CG location will effect this too…
R.
N157SX, J3300
Re: sight picture (over the nose)
Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2023 7:12 pm
by Skippydiesel
I am reliably informed, that most Sonex cruise, with about 1.5 degrees nose up attitude.
Re: sight picture (over the nose)
Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2023 1:50 am
by Kai
Would´nt that depend of the airspeed you decide to cruise? The faster you go, the lower the aoa to keep the needle of the vsi on zero?
Re: sight picture (over the nose)
Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2023 8:08 am
by XenosN42
Skippydiesel wrote:I am reliably informed, that most Sonex cruise, with about 1.5 degrees nose up attitude.
Please site source. Thanks.
Re: sight picture (over the nose)
Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2023 3:54 am
by Skippydiesel
XenosN42 wrote:
Skippydiesel wrote:I am reliably informed, that most Sonex cruise, with about 1.5 degrees nose up attitude.
Please site source. Thanks.
Won’t use his name (without permission), however Sonex plans builder & very experienced pilot in a wide range of piston aircraft (including Ag & airobats) who flew in a number of Sonex and went to the trouble of making some inflight measurements and found a consistent 1.5 degree nose up.
Re: sight picture (over the nose)
Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2023 11:16 pm
by gammaxy
This is typical of what I see in slow cruise with the Aerovee.
In comparing the images, it’s clear that my eye level is significantly higher.
Out of curiosity, I measured my pitch angle using the longeron as reference as 3.5 degrees at about 110-120mph at about 900lbs and about 3000ft density altitude.
Re: sight picture (over the nose)
Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2023 11:17 pm
by sonex892.
Photos of the sight picture and relative angle of the longeron with the horizon taken doing 122kts this morning. To my eyes the longeron looks to be level with the horizon.
Re: sight picture (over the nose)
Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2023 6:53 pm
by Bryan Cotton
A couple of years ago I had made hard pink foam boosters that went over each side of the seat sling. They often broke in front, and also reduced stick motion because of interference with my legs from being higher. I’ve backed off the fronts, from about a half inch aft of the sticks. Seems better and I’ll do a flight report when I get a chance. Each side has two layers so you can get a half or full inch boost.
Re: sight picture (over the nose)
Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2023 7:34 pm
by BRS
Since my first post I did go up and take a closer look as well as bring up a digital level. As I recall, the level showed 3.3 - 3.4 deg and actually my nose was lower when straight and level than I thought, at least below the horizon.
Re: sight picture (over the nose)
Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2023 2:13 pm
by Bryan Cotton
Here are my foam boosters. They are cut and glued to match the seat pan bend. The top one is cut back further from the stick. Thickness is 9/16" each piece, so 1.125" total.
foam boosters.png (536.26 KiB) Viewed 6968 times
Re: sight picture (over the nose)
Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2023 7:34 pm
by BRS
Bryan Cotton wrote:Here are my foam boosters. They are cut and glued to match the seat pan bend. The top one is cut back further from the stick. Thickness is 9/16" each piece, so 1.125" total.
Well that looks simple enough. I’ll have to check my head clearance and see about a booster seat. Either that or a back-stretcher.
Re: sight picture (over the nose)
Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2023 10:42 pm
by Bryan Cotton
We did a test sit in the hangar this evening. Adam is a little taller than me and took out one layer of foam for canopy clearance. I’m going to try it with both pieces in. Didn’t get to fly it as we were finishing up the oil change and valve adjustment.
Re: sight picture (over the nose)
Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2023 3:05 pm
by Kai
sonex892. wrote:Photos of the sight picture and relative angle of the longeron with the horizon taken doing 122kts this morning. To my eyes the longeron looks to be level with the horizon.
Agreed- doing 125 kts in my sg ds Legacy/120HP EP915ECI, I have noticed the same sight picture: the canopy rail/fuselage top longeron is as good as parallell with the horizon; perhaps maybe a tad nose up. A most instructive picture: very useful for calibrating the fuel sight tube during cruising flight.
Thanks
Kai
Re: sight picture (over the nose)
Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2023 10:29 pm
by Skippydiesel
Talking seat boosters;
I covered/glued cheap cotton cloth, to all sided of a 20 mm thick polystyrene insulation sheet.
The cloth is to prevent the polystyrene from crumbling away on the edges.
The Sonex seat pan is sloped, so by having the “booster” behind my back cushion, I not only move forward but up as well - places me perfectly in the cockpit.
Re: sight picture (over the nose)
Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2023 9:28 pm
by Bryan Cotton
Took off just after sunset for a short flight. I can see over the nose! Awesome. I’ll have to get a picture later, we didn’t have a lot of time.
Re: sight picture (over the nose)
Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2023 11:57 am
by Bryan Cotton
Here is my sight level picture at 100 kts. Visibility was not the best and the absolute horizon was obscured. But, I can see forward!
Waiex 191 over the nose.png (504.73 KiB) Viewed 5182 times
sight picture (over the nose)
Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2023 12:37 pm
by jklPDXPilot
Brock, where do you fly out of? I see Woodland and Scappoose freqs on your radio in the picture.
I fly out of Scappoose and am considering building a Sonex.
Would you be open to showing me your plane?
James
Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk
Re: sight picture (over the nose)
Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2023 3:30 pm
by Kai
Bryan Cotton wrote:Here is my sight level picture at 100 kts. Visibility was not the best and the absolute horizon was obscured. But, I can see forward!
The attachment Waiex 191 over the nose.png is no longer available
This shot was taken apprx 5 years ago- still with the 120HP Jab engine. The motor has since been replaced with a 120HP Edge EP915ECI. Over the nose sight picture is almost identical. Altimeter shows 2700 ft, which is amsl. The picture was take early spring (about +3 centigrades ambient ground temp)
Re: sight picture (over the nose)
Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2023 3:45 pm
by BRS
jklPDXPilot wrote:Brock, where do you fly out of? I see Woodland and Scappoose freqs on your radio in the picture.
I fly out of Scappoose and am considering building a Sonex.
Would you be open to showing me your plane?
James
Sure James, come on over. PM sent.
As a followup on the sight picture I’ve made a few rigging changes that I think will solve things. I first started by tickling down the flaps switch (while in flight). Just a slight change made all the difference in lowering the nose. Then back at the hangar I looked closely and noticed that the flaps were up from the ailerons about a 1/2". When I set them up I did my best to align with a straight edge on a curved wing like the plans say but straight and curved don’t agree. So this time I zeroed my electronic 6" protractor on the trail of the wing in front of the flaps then compaired to the trail edge of the flaps. The difference was 2 deg. So after turning the heim joints out 1-1/2 turns I had the flaps angle matching the wing and they also aligned evenly with the ailerons. How about that! I’ve not flown since as I’m replacing the AeroInjector with a Rotec carb.
The second thing I did was to print four of Peter’s flap stops (pireted them from pictures and descriptions, hope you don’t mind too much Peter). So with these installed, the flap comes up to where they should be and no higher. Again, waiting for the Rotec installation to go test it all out.
Re: sight picture (over the nose)
Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2023 8:53 am
by Tony4aro
BRS wrote:
The second thing I did was to print four of Peter’s flap stops (pireted them from pictures and descriptions, hope you don’t mind too much Peter). So with these installed, the flap comes up to where they should be and no higher. Again, waiting for the Rotec installation to go test it all out.
Would you mind sharing the model so I could print a set of stops?
Re: sight picture (over the nose)
Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2023 12:34 pm
by BRS
Tony,
PM sent. Don’t think I can upload a STL here.