Rotax 9 Oil Hose
Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:05 am
by Skippydiesel
Yes I know that I can get Rotax 9 oil hose from my local Rotax agent. Unfortunately this would be at a greatly inflated cost, somewher in the region of X4, compared with some other reputable suppliers of similar products.
My 912 is fitted with Continental CONTI – OIL - M4M – 2 - 12 x 3.5 > AEM< 41/19/11 0155 hose details can be found on page 30, in https://merlett.com/wp-content/uploads/ … en_low.pdf
I would very much like to stick with the Continental M4M-2, as supplied on my new Rotax BUT I dont like to pay any more than the going rate, so am hoping you might help with finding alternative suppliers of the product.
I am unable to find an Australian supplier of this particular Continental hose - I am hoping you can recommend a supplier (with contact email) in your part of the World who may be willing to ship to Australia.
Alternatively;
You might like to tell me what product you are using & why
Re: Rotax 9 Oil Hose
Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:20 pm
by SonexN76ET
A key concern about the Rotax oil hose is that the hoses going from the oil pump to the oil cooler and from the oil cooler to the oil tank are suction hoses. The oil hoses must not collapse under suction while at or above operating temperature. So please ensure any oil hose you purchase is appropriate for suction while hot.
I purchased teflon oil hose with integral fire sleeve from:
http://www.http://aircraftspecialty.com/
Jake
Re: Rotax 9 Oil Hose
Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 11:09 pm
by Skippydiesel
SonexN76ET wrote:A key concern about the Rotax oil hose is that the hoses going from the oil pump to the oil cooler and from the oil cooler to the oil tank are suction hoses. The oil hoses must not collapse under suction while at or above operating temperature. So please ensure any oil hose you purchase is appropriate for suction while hot.
I purchased teflon oil hose with integral fire sleeve from:
http://www.http://aircraftspecialty.com/
Jake
Good point Jake,
Mos,t if not all of the hose I have been researching has both a positive and negative pressure/suction rating.
Out of interest why “teflon oil hose with integral fire sleeve” and what was the cost /length (I use mm/m and can convert from feet/yards)
Re: Rotax 9 Oil Hose
Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 5:32 am
by Skippydiesel
Strange!
Every Rotax 9 driver will need oil hose, sometime within the next 5 years.
I would have thought the availability of appropriate hose (meeting Rotax specifications) at the right price, would have been a hot topic for Forum/Rotax members .
My research would suggest, that our only Australian Rotax dealership, will sell you oil hose, at approximately $80/m (most Rotax 9’s will require between 1 & 2 m for each 5 year rubber replacement) over the price, for a similar product, from a reputable hose manufacturer/supplier.
It could be your Rotax dealership is also expecting to make a financial “killing” out of unquestioning customers.
Re: Rotax 9 Oil Hose
Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:53 am
by GordonTurner
I have no personal information, but the manufacturer is not in a good position to bring cheap parts/supplies to Australia or anywhere else.
First, likely anything they stock originated at quality control, perhaps in Austria. It is likely procured directly from the manufacturer and represents a known quantity.
This is less true of “real hose” procured on Amazon…but doesn’t mean it’s the only way to get good quality parts.
Second, they are then shipping post-quality control parts/supplies in small quantities from presumably Austria.
If you want known quality procured inspected and shipped by the engine manufacturer then the process is not cheap.
Gordon
Re: Rotax 9 Oil Hose
Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:23 pm
by Skippydiesel
This is how they “get you by the short & curly’s” its actually BS.
I dont purchase parts/materials for aircraft (even automotive) from non reputable suppliers;
eg Gates (Automotive/Marine/Hydraulic) Eaton Aeroquip, Pirtek (Australian hydraulic company) Continental (not for this hose)
A big attraction in the Sonex (for me) is it is NON CERTIFIED/EXPERIMENTAL aircraft.
You can use whatever “stuff” you want.
Having said that, I would strongly advise doing as much due diligence as is possible and apply a very large dollop of common sense/logic to every purchase.
Never purchase critical (to continued safe flight) items that do not have detailed specifications, that you can compare with the manufactures (engine etc).
All the hoses I have considered so far, exceed Rotax specifications for this application (most by a very large margin) and also exceed the Continental CONTI-M4M hose specification’s.
Re: Rotax 9 Oil Hose
Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2022 3:23 am
by Skippydiesel
There being little advice from the Sonex family, I have purchased Gates GTH-8 low pressure hydraulic hose.
I would welcome your comments.
Re: Rotax 9 Oil Hose
Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2022 3:24 am
by Skippydiesel
There being little advice from the Sonex family, I have purchased Gates GTH-8 low pressure hydraulic hose.
I would welcome your comments.
Re: Rotax 9 Oil Hose
Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2022 10:05 am
by SonexN76ET
Skippy Diesel,
I highly recommend that you join Rotax-Owner.com to help you get some answers. There is plenty of legitimate and Rotax endorsed information there. I gave you advice on oil hoses but you chose to go in a different direction. There is very limited informed advice on this Sonex builders group here because right now there are so few Sonex aircraft with Rotax engines flying.
Jake
Re: Rotax 9 Oil Hose
Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2022 2:22 am
by Kai
There must be quite a few R9-series engines in the Sonex by now!
This Sonex A #0525 operator has the Rotax recommended oil hose between tank, cooler and pump. So far everything works as advertised. After 15 years behind a Jab, fretting about all that could go wrong, I decided that enough was enough and again get back into some relaxed flying. Hence I left the experimental engine work and component delection to those in the know and with the facilities to test their findings. I am just happy to follow in their wake- and sod the costs!
Maybe, if you have to ask what original spares cost, a R9- series is not for you after all.
Thx
Re: Rotax 9 Oil Hose
Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2022 5:43 am
by Skippydiesel
SonexN76ET wrote:Skippy Diesel,
I highly recommend that you join Rotax-Owner.com to help you get some answers. There is plenty of legitimate and Rotax endorsed information there. I gave you advice on oil hoses but you chose to go in a different direction. There is very limited informed advice on this Sonex builders group here because right now there are so few Sonex aircraft with Rotax engines flying.
Jake
Thank you for your Rotax Owner forum recommendation - I will certainly follow that up.
As for your “advice on oil hoses” there was none other than your purchase of " teflon oil hose with integral fire sleeve" from Aircraft Speciality. You gave no rational for this decision or answered my question on the same.
Sonex/Rotax may be a small percentage of the fleet in the USA but are growing in popularity internationally.
Re: Rotax 9 Oil Hose
Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2022 6:04 am
by Skippydiesel
Kai wrote:There must be quite a few R9-series engines in the Sonex by now!
This Sonex A #0525 operator has the Rotax recommended oil hose between tank, cooler and pump. So far everything works as advertised. After 15 years behind a Jab, fretting about all that could go wrong, I decided that enough was enough and again get back into some relaxed flying. Hence I left the experimental engine work and component delection to those in the know and with the facilities to test their findings. I am just happy to follow in their wake- and sod the costs!
Maybe, if you have to ask what original spares cost, a R9- series is not for you after all.
Thx
Kai - Your attitude suggests your pockets may be lined with gold, so why are you flying a Sonex, very much the cheaper end of the recreational aircraft world ?
Sonex is the epitome of experimental aircraft, a movement / philosophy that encourages innovative thinking - your suggestion would seem to be more in line with certified factory built aircraft. Perhaps you you would feel more at home in a Cessna/Piper/etc. You would have no choice other than to purchase all service/repair items at the dealers price and then have them installed by a LAIM or other approved service providers and “sod the cost!”.
Oil hose, fuel hose, coolant hose and a host of other items (meeting / exceeding Rotax specifications) can be found at much more competitive pricing than from Rotax - if you want to waste your dollars - go for it.
Re: Rotax 9 Oil Hose
Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2022 9:29 pm
by SonexN76ET
Unfortunately I have found if a person chooses a Rotax engine it turns out to be expensive in many ways. I have spent around $30,000 USD on replacing my trusty AeroVee with the Rotax 912 ULS. I am using all new Rotax approved components with the exception of a custom exhaust required due to using the Sonex engine mount.
Here are the approximate major costs:
Engine $20,000
Propeller, spinner, & extension $2,500
Exhaust $2,000
Oil lines and fuel return line and return line restrictor $600
Radiator, hoses, clamps & mounts $500
Oil cooler $200
Fiberglass & materials for radiator ducting and cowling modification $ 300
Sonex Rotax mount & hardware $2000
Throttle and choke cables and throttle quadrant $600
Keyed ignition switch $200
MGL temperature probes for Rotax $200
Cabin heat $400
Carb heat (coolant heated) $400
Boost pump, pump bypass & check valve $200
Capacitor & wiring & battery cables $150
Hardware, clamps, misc $1,000
May be a few other things as well.
Jake
Re: Rotax 9 Oil Hose
Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2022 9:32 pm
by SonexN76ET
Skippy Diesel,
The reason I went with the Teflon oil lines is due to longer service life. On the non Teflon lined fuel and oil hoses Rotax requires replacement every five years.
Jake
Re: Rotax 9 Oil Hose
Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2022 5:00 am
by Skippydiesel
SonexN76ET wrote:Skippy Diesel,
The reason I went with the Teflon oil lines is due to longer service life. On the non Teflon lined fuel and oil hoses Rotax requires replacement every five years.
Jake
Thanks Jake - I would be interested to hear how the cost, at time of purchase and over projected service life, of your Teflon hoses compares with, say Gates Barricade Fuel Injection (which I use) or Barricade Carburation (also perfectly adequate).
Re: Rotax 9 Oil Hose
Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2022 5:34 am
by Skippydiesel
SonexN76ET wrote:Unfortunately I have found if a person chooses a Rotax engine it turns out to be expensive in many ways. I have spent around $30,000 USD on replacing my trusty AeroVee with the Rotax 912 ULS. I am using all new Rotax approved components with the exception of a custom exhaust required due to using the Sonex engine mount.
Here are the approximate major costs:
Engine $20,000 - Don’t know where you live - the price would suggest USA. If this is the going rate, well that’s what it is. I assumed you shopped around for the best deal.
Propeller, spinner, & extension $2,500 - Most aircraft have a spinner but why the extension?
Exhaust $2,000 - “Custom exhaust required due to using the Sonex engine mount”. You have either been misled or misinformed. My Sonex /Rotax 912ULS with standard Sonex mount & Rotax adapter easily accommodates a standard Rotax exhaust.
Oil lines and fuel return line and return line restrictor $600 -I think you will find most aircraft engines will use fuel & oil lines to some degree. The cost seems unusually high in your case. Perhaps you were unware of the alternative reputable manufactures/suppliers of hose that easily meets the Rotax specifications.
Radiator, hoses, clamps & mounts $500 - Yeah a Rotax radiator is costly however ordinary automotive hose, from a reputable manufacturer, is more than adequate. You may have to do some reserch to find the correct profile (bends) for your application. As for clamps, again automotive clamps with rolled edges & inside sleeve to minimise the change of damaging the hose construction, are my proffered style.
Oil cooler $200 - Doesn’t seem to be an outrageous price. You did shop around? You are ware that Rotax have 3 sizes on offer?
Fiberglass & materials for radiator ducting and cowling modification $ 300 - Well done looks like you did well in this area
Sonex Rotax mount & hardware $2000 - All engines will need a mounting system - just the way it is
Throttle and choke cables and throttle quadrant $600 - See above - you have to have some way of communicating with your engine
Keyed ignition switch $200 - Why? A keyed master switch from your local auto or electronics store, would have been much cheaper and achieved all the security you need. Then have one ordinary switch for each ignition
MGL temperature probes for Rotax $200 - Your choice
Cabin heat $400 - Well if you live in a cold climate this might just be considered essential. Here is Australia, even in winter, there is enough heat from the engine side of the firewall to keep the cockpit pretty comfortable even when OAT is way below freezing.
Carb heat (coolant heated) $400 - My Sonex/Rotax also has these (fitted by the first builder). My last Rotax powered aircraft had no carburettor heat of any kind. In flight cowling air temperatures, (carby intake air) were a consistent 10C above OAT, effectively reducing the chance of icing to close to 0. There was probably a slight reduction in engine performance but I never noticed. In 10 years and about 600 hrs + of flying, I never experienced carby ice. I am not completely convinced that these down stream air warmers are truly effective therefore cost effective.
Boost pump, pump bypass & check valve $200 - Yet to find a low wing aircraft that does not have a boost pump. Just part of the cost of flying. As for the rest - what are they for?
Capacitor & wiring & battery cables $150 - Don’t know if this is a high/low cost but you certainly need them
Hardware, clamps, misc $1,000 - Wow! seems a tad steep & more clamps?
May be a few other things as well.
Jake
Re: Rotax 9 Oil Hose
Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2022 10:50 am
by SonexN76ET
Skippy,
I have a tri gear and a bottom mounted radiator hence it did not appear that the stock Rotax exhaust would fit when I was ordering my components originally two years ago.
As for the prop extension perhaps you should consult the Sonex website where it states a prop extensio is required.
The boost pump bypass and check valve allows fuel to flow in the event the boost pump were to clog and is shown in the Rotax installation manual.
As far as $1000 for hardware that includes many miscellaneous AN hardware, adel clamps, aluminum, brackets, sealants, etc. This estimate is probably a little low even.
I will post photos of my engine cowling in a few more days. It is 8 inches narrower at the nose than the stock AeroVee cowling. It has a NACA inlet on the bottom for the radiator, and a small inlet just below the prop spinner for the oil cooler. The cowling is tapered perfectly to the 9 inch prop spinner. The cowling has polished aluminum sides. On the bottom behind the radiator their is a shallow tunnel to assist with the cooling air outflow.
Jake
Re: Rotax 9 Oil Hose
Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2022 10:14 pm
by Skippydiesel
All good responses Jake,
I had not thought of a nose wheel Sonex. I can see how there might be a problem with the muffler/silencer.
I havent seen the Sonex recommendations for a prop extension - will look into it. I will point out that a prop extension is usually considered when there are other factors that can not be adjusted so as to not require one. Sometimes the other factor is styling rather than function.
I was really responding to what I perceived as your suggestion that owning a Rotax is particularly expensive (compared with the alternatives) My experience (10 years and 600 hrs) would be the opposite.
I look forward to seeing your engine layout and in particular your cowling design - I am just about to start building a custom cowling for my Sonex/Rotax 912 ULS, so am very interested in all other Sonex/Rotax installation’s.
Re: Rotax 9 Oil Hose
Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2022 6:18 pm
by Skippydiesel
Good News on the Oil Hose Front!
I asked the Rotax Owners Forum about the use of Gates GTH-8 (8 for 12mm/.5") on my Rotax 912 ULS - got the green light.
So for all you fiscally careful Rotax owners out there, you now have a cheaper option, than just blindly purchasing from your regional Rotax dealership.