Ring Terminals
Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2024 8:26 pm
by BobDz
I’ve been shopping ring terminals for my future electrical system. Comparing apples to apples (same wire size, same stud size) I find that “aircraft” terminals are 2 to 2.5 times higher in price than a high grade “marine” terminal. Both are nylon, both are clad copper. But the marine type are crimped with heat shrink tubing. Which I think is a better option for less than half the price. If I bought “aircraft” terminals I would add heat shrink tubing to the connection.
A question for those who are smarter than me, any reason why I couldn’t use " marine" quality?
Re: Ring Terminals
Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2024 8:55 pm
by BRS
I have used Marine quality and feel the shrink tubing does a nice job holding the wire and keeping it from breaking at the terminal. The AMP terminals have a second crimp area to hold the wire on the insulation. Seems that is the same purpose as the heat shrink which is to keep the wire from bending at the crimp. A possible down side on the marine terminals is that they do such a good job holding the wire, especially if it is the kind with water proofing glue, that if there was a bad/loose crimp, giving it a tug will not reveal the fault.
Re: Ring Terminals
Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2024 9:08 pm
by BobDz
BRS wrote:I have used Marine quality and feel the shrink tubing does a nice job holding the wire and keeping it from breaking at the terminal.
Brock
I have a Wirefy ratcheting crimper that I dearly love. Best crimper I have ever used. That immediately took me to the Wirefy website and I think I am going to ultimately use their brand. If I do, I’ll have dozens to offer up to my fellow EAAers.
In the SportAir Online electrical course they did show the double crimp - one on the wire and one on the insulation. I just can’t convince myself that it is worth it. I dont see my wirring being in any kind of high stress environment. Even if I did go with the double crimp, I would still add heat shrink tubing. It makes a very nice looking connection. I did it that way on my son’s van build.
Re: Ring Terminals
Posted: Thu Feb 29, 2024 10:26 am
by builderflyer
I have a complete set of crimper tools for all types of connectors, only aircraft quality connectors. But after properly crimping a wire in a connector verified by a hard tug on the wire, it still can come loose sometime later. So now in addition to crimping, I solder all connections, even D-sub pins. With soldering though it’s important that the wire(s) be supported not far from the connector to avoid a “fatigue” type failure of the wire where it meets the connector. For most connector types, I’ll also install heat shrink tubing for insulation and support purposes. Overkill? Possibly, but I sleep better.
Art,Sonex taildragger #95,Jabiru 3300 #261
Re: Ring Terminals
Posted: Thu Feb 29, 2024 10:36 am
by BobDz
builderflyer wrote:I have a complete set of crimper tools for all types of connectors, only aircraft quality connectors. But after properly crimping a wire in a connector verified by a hard tug on the wire, it still can come loose sometime later. So now in addition to crimping, I solder all connections, even D-sub pins. With soldering though it’s important that the wire(s) be supported not far from the connector to avoid a “fatigue” type failure of the wire where it meets the connector. For most connector types, I’ll also install heat shrink tubing for insulation and support purposes. Overkill? Possibly, but I sleep better.
Art,Sonex taildragger #95,Jabiru 3300 #261
Art
I don’t believe that it is overkill at all.
What defines “aircraft quality connector”? Is it the double crimp?
Re: Ring Terminals
Posted: Thu Feb 29, 2024 10:57 am
by Bryan Cotton
BobDz wrote:
What defines “aircraft quality connector”? Is it the double crimp?
It’s the 2-2.5X higher price! I’ve been guilty of using some cheap lugs and I’ve also had a couple of issues. Next Waiex that is one place that I’ll not go cheap.
I worked at Sikorsky for many years and we pretty much always uses crimp connectors instead of solder, mainly for fatigue. So I avoid solder wherever I can, but really support it well if I need to solder.
Re: Ring Terminals
Posted: Thu Feb 29, 2024 11:42 am
by BobDz
Bryan Cotton wrote:
BobDz wrote:
What defines “aircraft quality connector”? Is it the double crimp?It’s the 2-2.5X higher price! I’ve been guilty of using some cheap lugs and I’ve also had a couple of issues. Next Waiex that is one place that I’ll not go cheap.
I worked at Sikorsky for many years and we pretty much always uses crimp connectors instead of solder, mainly for fatigue. So I avoid solder wherever I can, but really support it well if I need to solder.
So, on your next build, would you use aircraft quality terminals? Or high quality “marine” type terminals?
Re: Ring Terminals
Posted: Thu Feb 29, 2024 12:23 pm
by Bryan Cotton
I’d use aircraft quality terminals. I respect other views, but that is what I’d do.
Re: Ring Terminals
Posted: Thu Feb 29, 2024 12:36 pm
by BobDz
Bryan Cotton wrote:I’d use aircraft quality terminals. I respect other views, but that is what I’d do.
In the end, it’s only a few bucks as there aren’t 400 terminals on a kitbuilt. It’s just the 2.5 price multiplier when the word “aircraft” appears in the description that irritates me.
Re: Ring Terminals
Posted: Thu Feb 29, 2024 3:36 pm
by builderflyer
Bryan Cotton wrote:
I worked at Sikorsky for many years and we pretty much always uses crimp connectors instead of solder, mainly for fatigue. So I avoid solder wherever I can, but really support it well if I need to solder.
No one should deny that a soldered connection is potentially electrically better than a crimped connection, especially over the long term. But when a “business” situation is involved, the cost benefit ratio sometimes reigns supreme. The “fatigue” issue is easily dealt with but with the additional time spent “soldering” and “supporting”, the added cost is likely prohibitive.
Art,Sonex taildragger #3300,Jabiru 3300 #261
Re: Ring Terminals
Posted: Thu Feb 29, 2024 5:24 pm
by Bryan Cotton
builderflyer wrote:
Bryan Cotton wrote:
No one should deny that a soldered connection is potentially electrically better than a crimped connection, especially over the long term. But when a “business” situation is involved, the cost benefit ratio sometimes reigns supreme. The “fatigue” issue is easily dealt with but with the additional time spent “soldering” and “supporting”, the added cost is likely prohibitive.Art,Sonex taildragger #3300,Jabiru 3300 #261
I won’t deny it, especially with the qualifier “potentially”. But we were not using crimp connectors for cost. Every connector, all the wire, all the calibrated tools and labor are eye-wateringly expensive. Connector pins were generally gold plated crimp type. They are also expected to survive salt environments. Helicopters do shake a lot and soldered wires will also break at the end of the solder joint. Lots more 38999 connectors than lugs in a Blackhawk.
Re: Ring Terminals
Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2024 6:22 pm
by Skippydiesel
Soldered Connections
Sure solder creates an excellent electrical connection BUT it has a down side:-
Many years ago, I spent some time at a marine research station. When I installed radios in some of the boats, I soldered all the electrical connections. Can’t recall exactly how long the soldered connections lasted but I reckon within a month, there were connection problems. When I investigated, the solder had completely disappeared from most joints.
It wasn’t just my electrical work that suffered - pretty much anything with dissimilar metals went the same way, sooner or later.
Electrolysis only needs moisture and dissimilar metals to take hold. Salt just accelerates the process.
The moral of the story - if your aircraft “lives” in a salt laden atmosphere (near the sea) soldered connections are pretty much a waste of effort.
Except in special circumstances, I gave up on soldering connection from that time on - all crimp style for me and have never had a problem since.
For those who may be concerned with achieving the best electrical connection - use washers and a smear of dielectric grease on mating surfaces and make sure the connection is tight.
Re: Ring Terminals
Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2024 12:23 pm
by builderflyer
[quote=“Skippydiesel”]Soldered Connections
Sure solder creates an excellent electrical connection BUT it has a down side:-
The moral of the story - if your aircraft “lives” in a salt laden atmosphere (near the sea) soldered connections are pretty much a waste of effort.]
Google this topic and you’ll find hundreds of varied opinions on both sides of the argument. But in your situation, where the soldered connections went bad in a very short time, I’m guessing that you may have inadvertently used acid core solder rather than rosin core solder. Otherwise, it defies explanation as to how the connections could have gone bad so quickly.
For over ten years my Sonex was based on an airport with a daily sea breeze from the Pacific ocean and the soldered connections I used remained as pristine as the day they were first soldered. And they remain so now more than twenty years after first being soldered. Just my opinion, but based on fact.
Art,Sonex taildragger #95,Jabiru 3300 #261
Re: Ring Terminals
Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2024 5:36 pm
by Skippydiesel
Thanks for that Builderflyer,
I have no recollection of the type of solder used - would have been something purchased through the local parts store, without consideration as to the flux type.
Have to point out though, that our corrosion/electroless problems in all aspects of the facility were huge. Our mains electrical supply (240V), pumps, metal structures/equipment, even our aluminium boat hulls, etc suffered from corrosion. Any metal in close proximity to a dissimilar metal, seemed to just dissolve, especially so, where an electrical current was also involved.
Bear in mind that my 2 year experience, in a marine research facility, was about 20 years ago now - they likely have better understanding of electrolysis and have implemented a whole range of control systems/materials/techniques, by now.
Just my observation, but based on fact.