Prop choice
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 11:14 am
by Mike53
I got thinking about propeller choices for the Onex.In my search I ran across this co. and noted that it was on a few Sonex aircraft and wondered if anyone had any experience with them.I filled out there price quote page and used the sonex with an aerovee engine and it came up with an approximate price of $1056 including shipping.Is this a competitive price with other prop co’s.I found the design intriguing and the testimonials were positive as to shorter takeoff ,more climb,and higher cruise http://www.princeaircraft.com/default.aspx
Any other good choices :?:
Mike
Re: Prop choice
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 11:24 am
by N111YX
The Prince’s seem to be great props. I don’t hear any bad things about them. If I were buying a new prop I would probably go with the carbon covered Prince as I am tired of having the paint come off my Sensenich in the rain. No, I don’t regularly fly in the rain but it’s hard to avoid the pesky southern showers in the summer…
Re: Prop choice
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 1:36 pm
by Mike53
N111YX wrote:The Prince’s seem to be great props. I don’t hear any bad things about them. If I were buying a new prop I would probably go with the carbon covered Prince as I am tired of having the paint come off my Sensenich in the rain. No, I don’t regularly fly in the rain but it’s hard to avoid the pesky southern showers in the summer…
Kip would you say that the price is competitive with your Sensenich?What size is your prop?
Re: Prop choice
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 7:11 pm
by N111YX
Mike, the Prince prop is over $1100 where the Sensenich was about $800. Not sure of the size but I have the standard “Jab 3300” version that Sonex suggested…
Re: Prop choice
Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 12:04 am
by Mike53
Duh! Just discovered that Sonex sells Prince Prop’s.
Re: Prop choice
Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 5:02 pm
by fastj22
Which do you think would have better climb performance for a Jabiru 3300, Prince or Sensenich.
All are 54 inches diameter (those sold through Sonex).
Prince has a 60 inch pitch.
Sensenich Wood has a 62 inch pitch.
Sensenich Glass has a 64 inch pitch.
If I recall my RC days correctly, the finer the pitch (lower the number) the better the climb but slower cruise. But not all props are created equal and especially between manufacturers.
My field elevation is 6500ft with summer DAs up to 9,500ft. I will sacrifice cruise for climb.
Re: Prop choice
Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2011 10:06 pm
by fastj22
I just ordered a Prince from Sonex over the web. I know they are on Christmas shutdown, but at least I have the order in when they return.
For those who got a Prince, what was the turn around time from order to delivery? I’ve heard stories of over 3 months. I hope not, but I think the Prince is the best choice for a good climb prop.
Re: Prop choice
Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 3:23 am
by sonex892
For those that like experimenting and have a bit of patience and free time you can roll your own for about $80 worth of materials. Here are a couple of pics of the 2 props I’ve made and have been using. I ran prototype 2 for the first 20 hrs and prototype 3 for the last 65hrs. Prototype 1 has only been used as a test club on ground runs.
For the design I bought a JC Propellor design program and thoroughly recommend it. The program runs on excel and will produce a design for 6 different styles and can also do 3 and 4 blade designs. Even if you dont want to make a prop it can be used as a tool for prop selection. Oh by the way I have no connection to JC propellor.
I’m now in the process of completing a new fibreglass spinner total parts weigh just over 1 lb this will replace 3.5 lbs of billet spinner
Steve
Sonex 892 VH ZSX
prototype 3 64" x 55"
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prototype 2 63" x 55"
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Re: Prop choice
Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:25 am
by radfordc
sonex892 wrote:For those that like experimenting and have a bit of patience and free time you can roll your own for about $80 worth of materials. Here are a couple of pics of the 2 props I’ve made and have been using. I ran prototype 2 for the first 20 hrs and prototype 3 for the last 65hrs. Prototype 1 has only been used as a test club on ground runs.
Steve, can you give us your performance numbers…static rpm, cruise rpm/speed, max rpm/speed, climb rpm/rate of climb, etc.
Re: Prop choice
Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:06 am
by sonex892
radfordc wrote:
sonex892 wrote:For those that like experimenting and have a bit of patience and free time you can roll your own for about $80 worth of materials. Here are a couple of pics of the 2 props I’ve made and have been using. I ran prototype 2 for the first 20 hrs and prototype 3 for the last 65hrs. Prototype 1 has only been used as a test club on ground runs.
Steve, can you give us your performance numbers…static rpm, cruise rpm/speed, max rpm/speed, climb rpm/rate of climb, etc.
Charlie. Static rpm with the 64" prop is 2850rpm 24"Mp, climbout sees 2900rpm 27"Mp. At WOT in flight it revs out to between to 3100 and 3150rpm, at WOT I have seen 160 knots IAS in smooth air. I normally cruise at 2700rpm which achieves an average of 130 knots at 19 litres per hour. 2800rpm is close to 140 knots and 23 litres per hour
Now its definitely not a climb prop. The best climb rate I see solo on a cold day is about 1400 to 1500fpm. Flown solo it is almost always over 1000fpm. If its hot and heavy it doesnt climb real good. The worst I have seen at gross on a hot day 38 degrees C was between 400 and 500 fpm.
For the next prop I’ll be aiming for 62" pitch.
Steve
Sonex 892 VH ZSX 3300 TD
Re: Prop choice
Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:15 am
by Mike53
Steve,can you tell us a little bit more about the process ie; learning the program -how hard? Did you have use of a CNC machine or did you hand carve it?
Totally impressive results and at $80 in material and the cost of the software I am intrigued :idea: 
Thanks
Mike
Re: Prop choice
Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 2:02 pm
by vicdelgado9
Steve, I second that! They look great! I am very interested in possibly making my own prop as well. I am interested in hearing more about how you made your own prop, by hand, or equipment needed, and the software.
Re: Prop choice
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:41 pm
by sonex892
Mike and Vic. The program is fairly simple to use. Its uses excel, just need to enter data in the fields such as RPM, speeds, HP, airframe type (slippery or draggy) diameter, type of wood etc. It took a little playing around with these fields to get the prop pitch I wanted. From this it will produce performance graphs and plotted airfoil section drawings for seven stations along with a table of coordinates for each station. I then copy these coordinates over to autocad manually to draw each station and from these drawings I make a plan view template of the prop shape. This is used to mark out the blanks. These could also be drawn by hand with a ruler and French curves.
top templates
IMG_0322.jpg (51.47 KiB) Viewed 12239 times
I do all the carving by hand but with powertools mostly.
1/Bandsaw to cut out the blanks and drill a centre hole which becomes the reference for absolutely everything.
2/Reciprocating saw to cut down to the station marks in the glued blanks, carefully stopping about 1/8" proud
blanks with depth cuts
IMG_0069.jpg (44.96 KiB) Viewed 12239 times
3/Electric plane to to rip it down to these cuts.
4/ File carefully to go down to final shape at each station, a vixen file would do for this,
5/Angle grinder with a 40 grit flap disc fitted to knock down the high bits.
grinding off the high bits
IMG_0314.jpg (39.77 KiB) Viewed 12239 times
6/Belt sander to bring it down to final shape starting with 40grit progressing to finer grades
7/Sanding by hand
I do steps 3,4,5 and 6 on the rear or bottom blade first then repeat the process on the top or front of the blade. As soon as I start with the belt sander on the top of the blade I start looking at the horizontal balance.
Thats how I have done it I’m no expert. It takes me about 60 hrs to do each one and its a dirty and dusty job
Steve
Sonex 892
Re: Prop choice
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:05 pm
by Mike53
Thanks Steve,it must an immensely satisfying feeling flying behind a prop you made yourself.Did you have any issues balancing the props?
Re: Prop choice
Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:02 pm
by rizzz
Wow this is awesome Steve.
Anybody have an idea what it would cost to have your prop machined in a shop once you’ve designed it with the JC Propeller software and created a 3D model in AutoCAD they can work off?
Re: Prop choice
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:48 am
by sonex892
Mike53 wrote:Thanks Steve,it must an immensely satisfying feeling flying behind a prop you made yourself.Did you have any issues balancing the props?
The balancing can be a PITA and can take quite a bit of time. I have been using a rod through the centre hole of the prop sitting on a couple of levelled runners, with the workshop doors shut to stop the wind. Balancing it horizontally first I then paint still checking for balance. I use a one pack floor finish for the paint. I then vertical balance. Every prop so far has needed a lead slug for the vertical. Then a final balance by feathering the paint on the heavy side.
Ive seen a couple of alternative plumb bob type balancing setups on the net recently. I would like to try one out to compare it to what I’ve been using.
Steve
Sonex 892
Re: Prop choice
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:19 am
by Mike53
I’m thinking this is a great idea but wondering like Michael above if there is an easier way and I remembered this that I saved to my favorites a while back. http://buildyourcnc.com/cnckitintro.aspx For a couple hundred dollars you can build your own 3 axis CNC machine.
Cheers
Mike
Re: Prop choice
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:27 pm
by fastj22
fastj22 wrote:I just ordered a Prince from Sonex over the web. I know they are on Christmas shutdown, but at least I have the order in when they return.
For those who got a Prince, what was the turn around time from order to delivery? I’ve heard stories of over 3 months. I hope not, but I think the Prince is the best choice for a good climb prop.
I ordered the prop through Sonex just after Christmas. I got notification today from FedEx I have a package coming from Prince to be delivered on my birthday, Jan 16th. So that’s about a 2 week lead time with a holiday thrown in. I’m very impressed in both Sonex and Prince. I feel like a kid waiting for the delivery man.
Re: Prop choice
Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:04 pm
by rizzz
Mike53 wrote:I’m thinking this is a great idea but wondering like Michael above if there is an easier way and I remembered this that I saved to my favorites a while back. http://buildyourcnc.com/cnckitintro.aspx For a couple hundred dollars you can build your own 3 axis CNC machine.
Cheers
Mike
Wow, If I had seen this before I started building my Sonex, I would have built one of these first, would have made the making of the angle parts and the smaller flat parts so easy!
I might still build one looks like a great toy to have and pretty easy to build (compared to an airplaine!), the plans are only $35 so I might order those now anyway.
Re: Prop choice
Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:09 pm
by Mike53
I agree the possibilities are fantastic.Problem is the Auto Cad software .
I am familiar with and use sketchup all the time in my business but to the best of my knowledge you can’t transfer anything from it to a cnc machine so what I was wondering is would a product like TurboCad http://www.cadandgraphics.com/tcpro16.html work in this respect ? Most Auto Cad software is pricey but the Turbo Cad can be had for a few hundred dollars ,albeit an older version but who cares.Does anyone know if it will work ?This would be a great way to render the Onex for paint schemes also.
Mike
Re: Prop choice
Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 8:18 pm
by rizzz
Mike53 wrote:I agree the possibilities are fantastic.Problem is the Auto Cad software .
I am familiar with and use sketchup all the time in my business but to the best of my knowledge you can’t transfer anything from it to a cnc machine so what I was wondering is would a product like TurboCad http://www.cadandgraphics.com/tcpro16.html work in this respect ? Most Auto Cad software is pricey but the Turbo Cad can be had for a few hundred dollars ,albeit an older version but who cares.Does anyone know if it will work ?This would be a great way to render the Onex for paint schemes also.
Mike
TurboCAD will probably work, I have not played with it yet.
For 2D drawing, LiteCAD is a reasonable free CAD software package:
http://www.kolbasoft.com/litecad.html
Not as good as AutoCAD though.
There is a lot of software out there to automatically program CNC machines from CAD drawings, again very expensive software though.
Re: Prop choice
Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:19 pm
by sonex892
Here is a post I thought might be of use with links to free software. Its from a guy on the yahoo propellor group who is already cnc shaping his own props.
Steve
Sonex 892
he wrote:I found this one called heekscnc, and I tried it on a prop for a ppg which seems to work very nice (both software and the prop).
link:
http://www.heeks.net/
http://code.google.com/p/heekscnc/downloads/listI’m using A9cad for the profile drawings, then heekscnc for the cam part and emc2 for the cnc control on my homebuilt cnc. All free to use software.
My cnc in action:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQZ5tn9rSTo
.
Re: Prop choice
Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:20 am
by Mike53
Thanks Mike and Steve .I have found a free on-line AutoCad course and am going through it slowly to see if I can learn it or if it’s to much for an analog brain like mine :?
Mike
Re: Prop choice
Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:28 pm
by chris
Mike - could you post a link to the course? I could use an AutoCad refresher.
Steve - Did you use a standard wood glue to laminate the pieces together or something else? How do you orient the grain of the wood when gluing together?
Re: Prop choice
Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 2:17 pm
by Mike53
Here it is Chris http://www.we-r-here.com/cad/tutorials/index.htm
Re: Prop choice
Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:21 pm
by structurespilot
Here are a few options I have found for those who are interested in wood propellers. If anyone has personal experience with either of these, please post your opinions. Thanks.
Ed Sterba propellers
Tennessee propellers.
Regards, Norm
Re: Prop choice
Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 11:57 am
by dcstrng
sonex892 wrote:Mike and Vic. The program is fairly simple to use. Its uses excel, just need to enter data in the fields such as RPM, speeds, HP, airframe type (slippery or draggy) diameter, type of wood etc. It took a little playing around with these fields to get the prop pitch I wanted. From this it will produce performance graphs and plotted airfoil section drawings for seven stations along with a table of coordinates for each station…
Steve
Sonex 892
I’m about two years late coming to this conversation, but I’ve had Jan’s program for about a year and use it quite often for “advanced daydreaming.” I’ve used DesignCAD in hobby work for awhile and can transfer the ordinates easily enough, but not sure if I’m brave enough to actually build a real prop when the time comes… since my engine is further along than the rest of the effort, I thought I might try a test club just for grins, and see how it goes from there (but I’m still a couple of years away from really needing it).
– Larry
Sonex #1621 (just getting organized)
Re: Prop choice
Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2016 10:11 am
by onex28
Has anyone used either of the following prop manufacturers’ props on a VW based engine? If so, what has been your experience, performance data and opinion?
David
Any Warp Drive users.
Posted: Mon May 03, 2021 2:06 pm
by sjakulski
Any Warp Drive solutions used that one can post details on? Steve