Overhead Console
Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2024 8:07 pm
by Eric W
I know I’m getting way too far ahead of where things are, but a neat feature of the Highwing, especially with the spar overhead anyway, is the possibility for a switch console. Kind of a little “airliner” feel, but also with the possibility that all lights would be in the wings, why run a bunch of individually switched wires from panel up to the wing. Anyway, saw this on one of the Sling (High Wing) videos:
That cooler in that Sling is a swamp cooler (not compressor-based AC). Not saying I’d add that, but all the light switches in a row up there might be convenient.
Re: Overhead Console
Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2024 11:11 pm
by Skippydiesel
In Australia, only IFR aircraft are required to have navigation/landing lights.
For VFR their installation is more for aesthetic satisfaction, than for any functional benefit.
Re: Overhead Console
Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2024 11:20 pm
by Bryan Cotton
Skippydiesel wrote:In Australia, only IFR aircraft are required to have navigation/landing lights.
For VFR their installation is more for aesthetic satisfaction, than for any functional benefit.
Are you guys allowed to fly VFR at night?
Re: Overhead Console
Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2024 11:55 pm
by Skippydiesel
[quote=“Bryan Cotton”][quote=“Skippydiesel”]In Australia, only IFR aircraft are required to have navigation/landing lights.
There is some night VFR but its not common, amongst recreational pilots and is conducted in aircraft meeting IFR standards (which includes lights).
Aircraft meeting IFR standards require more capable (certified) instrumentation, frequent & stringent maintenance = more cost.
Night VFR requires additional training and endorsement. Few consider it to be worthwhile. Those pilots on their way to commercial flying, will usually go straight to a Instrument Rating.
There would be very few recreational level aircraft meeting the required standard to fly in low visibility conditions.
We have plenty of VFR aircraft fitted with lights but as I say their practical use is questionable.
Re: Overhead Console
Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2024 8:06 am
by Bryan Cotton
It’s different here. We fly a lot of night VFR. Days are short in the winter, and there are many airports with lighting. Plus, on a long XC, it’s handy to be able to get back after dark.
Re: Overhead Console
Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2024 8:58 am
by Scott Todd
I live in the Desert Southwest and sunset flights are amazing. And in the summer, we often launch before sunup to beat the heat. I also live outside a major city so night flying is much easier than flying in the middle of nowhere. All three of my home built airplanes have lights. Even the open cockpit biplane. Its pretty easy to add them while building so I don’t ever have to worry about what time it is. I always fly with strobes on also. You never know when it might catch someones eye before they hit you.
Re: Overhead Console
Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2024 10:35 pm
by Eric W
My Sonex had no lights at all. I found that I would fly it sometimes before work, but even on weekends I’d fly very early in the morning for the calmer air, no traffic, and to get a flight in before everything else I needed to do had to get started. Either way, sometimes I timed legal “daytime” to be moving from the runup to taking the active at the very first legal minute. So yes, lights could have been useful. Even playing with the edge of “daytime”, lights would have helped visibility of my plane a lot, as some bright flashes will get more attention than the essentially grey, partially-polished airframe. I understand up and away from the airport, an airplane can be nearly impossible to see or track lights or not, but around the airport / entering / leaving the pattern, lights can be more effective to help the other traffic find you there.
I know we’re in the time of advanced fish-finders now (ADSB), so maybe lights aren’t all that big of a deal other than to meet requirements to depart a little before legal “daytime” has begun or to just get a little farther at the end of the day.
There was another Sling builder who had somewhat different switch choices in his plane. He also added a “dome” or overhead cabin light, and a baggage area light in a similar overhead panel.
Given that I’m living in a desert, I’d probably skip the back window in the Highwing, so a baggage area light might have some use.
Re: Overhead Console
Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2024 11:43 pm
by Skippydiesel
Hi Eric,
Sorry can’t agree with your rationale for lights in VFR conditions. All the evidence is against you.
In the air(pilot viewer to aircraft) lights work well in low light conditions, against a contrasting background but thats about it.
From the ground they also work well - the viewer is looking up against rising terrain, blue and or cloudy sky and is often helped by the sound of the aircraft.
Ground to ground they also work well - lights on before engine start/taxi a definite safety enhancement.
The airborne human eye is very very bad at seeing other aircraft in the air - good radio communication, giving location, altitude, direction, intention, is your best bet, by far, to zeroing in on another aircraft in the air.
Not against lights - they look great but that doesn’t mean they are effective (in the air)
Re: Overhead Console
Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2024 12:03 am
by daleandee
Skippydiesel wrote:The airborne human eye is very very bad at seeing other aircraft in the air - good radio communication, giving location, altitude, direction, intention, is your best bet, by far, to zeroing in on another aircraft in the air.
Not against lights - they look great but that doesn’t mean they are effective (in the air)
Video evidence seems to suggest that a good set of wig-wags can make you quite visible to oncoming traffic (2:39) …
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYJm2H3pqXY
Re: Overhead Console
Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2024 12:07 am
by Bryan Cotton
Skippydiesel wrote:Hi Eric,
Sorry can’t agree with your rationale for lights in VFR conditions. All the evidence is against you.
Skippy,
By regulation we need navigation lights from sunset to sunrise.
https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/c … ion-91.209
Re: Overhead Console
Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2024 12:39 am
by Skippydiesel
daleandee wrote:
Skippydiesel wrote:The airborne human eye is very very bad at seeing other aircraft in the air - good radio communication, giving location, altitude, direction, intention, is your best bet, by far, to zeroing in on another aircraft in the air.
Not against lights - they look great but that doesn’t mean they are effective (in the air)
Video evidence seems to suggest that a good set of wig-wags can make you quite visible to oncoming traffic (2:39) …
Great when viewed from the ground. THE VIDEO IS LOOKING FROM THE GROUND UP OR AGAINST A CONTRASTING BACKGROUND
From the air, great once you have actually found/seen the aircarft, due to luck or good radio communication, narrowing the area where to look.
All the evidence indicates that lights flashing/wig waging/ whatever lights, have little if any benefit, in air to air, seeing of another aircraft in VFR conditions.
Re: Overhead Console
Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2024 9:32 am
by Scott Todd
“All the evidence is against you.” Seriously? What evidence is there that having lights wont help someone see you? I’m a new pilot and have only been flying since the invention of color TV and I can think of several occasions where I saw lights before seeing an aircraft. In my 50 years of flying and several thousand hours, NAV lights on for anything but bright sunny mid day and strobes on ALL the time. Its a few hundred dollars and a few hours on an aircraft build that gets lost in the noise. You might as well recommend people don’t use seat belts since they are hardly ever used.
Re: Overhead Console
Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2024 10:12 am
by daleandee
Skippydiesel wrote:All the evidence indicates that lights flashing/wig waging/ whatever lights, have little if any benefit, in air to air, seeing of another aircraft in VFR conditions.
Show me the evidence you have to prove this. There is a lot to prove that lighting, and especially flashing lighting, is extremely effective at attracting the attention of the human eye.
You can see my aircraft from the ground at more than a mile away with the wig-wags on. Are you suggesting that if the camera had been at 500’ that he wouldn’t have been able to see the wig-wags?
That is absolutely nonsensical. I cannot help you with this any further …
Dale
3.0 Corvair/Tailwheel
Re: Overhead Console
Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2024 10:57 am
by Bryan Cotton
Eric W wrote:I know I’m getting way too far ahead of where things are, but a neat feature of the Highwing, especially with the spar overhead anyway, is the possibility for a switch console. Kind of a little “airliner” feel, but also with the possibility that all lights would be in the wings, why run a bunch of individually switched wires from panel up to the wing.
Back to the original question - I can see this having some benefit. In terms of minimizing wire, to the wing root area would be better than the middle by a little bit. The other benefit would be less stuff on the panel. I’d want a breaker on the panel and run a single power wire, plus a ground up to the console. For the tail nav light, are you going to run the wires down the top or the bottom?
Re: Overhead Console
Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2024 9:22 pm
by Eric W
Bryan Cotton wrote:In terms of minimizing wire, to the wing root area would be better than the middle by a little bit. The other benefit would be less stuff on the panel. I’d want a breaker on the panel and run a single power wire, plus a ground up to the console. For the tail nav light, are you going to run the wires down the top or the bottom?
It seems most of the wingtip lights are set up to include the required tail / white light rearwards coverage, so nothing out to the tail would be needed.
Re: Overhead Console
Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2024 9:29 pm
by Bryan Cotton
Eric W wrote:It seems most of the wingtip lights are set up to include the required tail / white light rearwards coverage, so nothing out to the tail would be needed.
That is exactly how my Whelen Orion 600s are. Which was great, but then we wanted to add ADS-B out. Our plan was a UavioniX Echo, but then that went away. There are some cool options for integrating ADS-B in and out into the wingtip nav lights, but I’m not sure those have the white navigation light for aft.
Fish finder - that is awesome, I am going to use that term. You seem like you are pretty keyed up for the Sonex High Wing. It could be a good airplane I think.
Re: Overhead Console
Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2024 9:39 pm
by Skippydiesel
“All the evidence is against you.” Seriously? What evidence is there that having lights wont help someone see you? I’m a new pilot and have only been flying since the invention of color TV and I can think of several occasions where I saw lights before seeing an aircraft. In my 50 years of flying and several thousand hours, NAV lights on for anything but bright sunny mid day and strobes on ALL the time. Its a few hundred dollars and a few hours on an aircraft build that gets lost in the noise. You might as well recommend people don’t use seat belts since they are hardly ever used."
Try reading what I have written - I am not advising against navigation lights for day VFR aircraft - I am saying that they are more of an aesthetic addition (like a fancy paint job) than practical. Personally I quite like them but still does not mean I think they are effective - they are not.
“Show me the evidence you have to prove this. There is a lot to prove that lighting, and especially flashing lighting, is extremely effective at attracting the attention of the human eye.
You can see my aircraft from the ground at more than a mile away with the wig-wags on. Are you suggesting that if the camera had been at 500’ that he wouldn’t have been able to see the wig-wags?
That is absolutely nonsensical. I cannot help you with this any further …Dale”
Evidence for my opinion - I note that most (all?) countries do not require lights be fitted to aircraft, that are to be flown exclusively in day VFR conditions.
Further: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/589 … _avoid.pdf
“You can see my aircraft from the ground at more than a mile away with the wig-wags on.” You have just agreed with my statement.
“…if the camera had been at 500’ that he wouldn’t have been able to see the wig-wags?” This is NOT what I have said - In the air, without having a clue (radio communication) that there is an aircraft in a certain three-dimensional location the HUMAN EYE will have great difficulty in seeing it in DAY VFR conditions. Lights will make very little difference.
As for nonsense - try reading & understanding what I have written before making disparaging comments
Re: Overhead Console
Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2024 10:41 pm
by Bryan Cotton
We are off the rails a bit and that is ok. I’ll say that I have spotted aircraft many times because of their strobes or beacons whilst flying. Especially the latest generation of LED lights, they are pretty bright. So I’ll disagree that there is no VFR benefit.
Regarding the regs, here in the US of A, you are not required to have lights for day VFR. But if you have an anticollision light installed, you are required by 91.209(b) to turn it on, unless as PIC you determine it is causing a hazard. The only hazard I ever encountered with strobes was in IFR, actually in snow at night. I turned them off.
Re: Overhead Console
Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2024 11:29 am
by builderflyer
Regarding aircraft lighting, it’s interesting to read how most of our experiences are different from others. My personal daytime observations are (1) except in a heavy overcast sky condition, I can’t say I ever spotted another aircraft simply because it had working nav lights or even strobe lights, and (2) in a bright sunny sky condition, the only lights that ever brought another aircraft to my attention were landing lights, especially when they were doing a wig wag function.
Again, regarding aircraft lighting though, if the main purpose is to help to avoid hitting other aircraft, then no amount or type of lighting would have made a difference in my closest encounter with another aircraft ( talking inches, not feet) as the other aircraft wasn’t visible out either of our windows until the last second.
So when I first built my Sonex, I purposely had it certified for day vfr only with no lighting at all. I didn’t want to be tempted to fly a single engine experimental aircraft equipped with an experimental engine and prop during nighttime hours. But as the years went on, and because other aircraft could never spot my polished Sonex in the sky, I began to add strobe lights, first wingtip followed by a tail and belly strobe. Other aircraft still can’t spot me but at least the strobes look great when powered up in my hangar.
Art (pilot since 1965)…Sonex taildragger #95…Jabiru 3300 #261
Re: Overhead Console
Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2024 7:21 pm
by Skippydiesel
My thanks Builderflyer - I was beginning to think that I was but a voice in the wilderness.
As I see it (pun intended) we intuitively think that lights will increase visibility to other aircraft. Added to this is how undeniably great they look, particularly the pulsing/wig wag types.
Unfortunatly the science does not back this intuitive expectation, when in a day VFR environment.
Re: Overhead Console
Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2024 11:45 am
by Eric W
Bryan Cotton wrote:Fish finder - that is awesome, I am going to use that term. You seem like you are pretty keyed up for the Sonex High Wing. It could be a good airplane I think.
Yes, their products fit my mission and building capabilities, and they’ve been available at good points in my personal timeline. I happened to see the Sonex at its very first public show (Sun N Fun 1998). I was living in Florida at the time, and it wasn’t a big deal for me to get to that show. Though 1998 was the first time I went. At that time, they were selling wing plans only. (“Trust us, we’ll finish out these plans and get you the rest at some point.”)
I figured, give it a year and see where they’re at. I saw them again at Sun N Fun 1999, and not long after that I bought pre-owned plans set #0042. That builder had collected most of the sheet stock and angle but had only cut out the main spar webs. I took it from there, but when I got to the high-dollar end of the project in about 2001, I had my own “reality check” in that I really didn’t have the $ to finish it at that point. So I sold before it flew.
Knowing more about what it took, I bought plans #0815 in 2004, moved across the country in 2005, and started the build in 2005. Finished & flew in 2008 and operated the airplane for about 4 years. During all this, I had a couple of children and wasn’t able to use the plane very much after a couple of years. So I sold it (it’s still registered, and I have heard from subsequent owners every once in a while).
This Highwing should be selling parts when I’ve got 1 kid in college and another soon to follow. People say that’s when the $ is really going to the kids, but we’ve saved along the way, and hopefully there’s some scholarships. Anyway, I’ve made it to Airventure twice with my son, so he’d be happy to see the garage full of airplane construction rather than the couple of cars that are in there (the cars are all up and running, so there’s not a whole lot to do with them).
I like the look, the robust yet straightforward construction, and after sitting in it, it has 2 major advantages over the rest of the Sonex products for me: SUPER easy to get in & out, and more space all around, especially no more clunking the headset on the canopy. In the Sonex, I had the seat as low as it could go, with a very thin seat pad, and I’d raised the windshield bow a little for a slightly higher canopy bubble, but there was NO extra headroom.