No radio aircraft (NORDO)
Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 1:31 pm
by builderflyer
I’m really getting sick and tired of NORDO aircraft whose pilots either don’t have a radio or refuse to use the one they own because the “law” doesn’t require it be used. Even no-electrical system aircraft can easily be radio equipped with one of the inexpensive handhelds now available, such as Sportys PJ2 for $179 when on sale.
The Sonex doesn’t have the greatest forward visibility in a climbout, or in an approach at lower airspeeds, or during a takeoff or landing roll down the runway (taildragger), and having additional clues as to where everyone else is can be lifesaving. I’ve now had 3 events in the past year whereupon another aircraft’s pilot was not using a radio. Two of the events could have easily killed both of us and the third would have resulted in serious damage to both aircraft. All three of these events would have been non issues had the other pilot been on the radio to announce their position as I did. In my early days as a pilot, I had a few scary experiences that were mostly my own doing, but to have three in fairly close succession that could have easily been prevented by others is disturbing.
I’m done ranting except to say if one of you is one of those who doesn’t use their radio…please do.
Art,Sonex taildragger #95,Jabiru 3300 #261
Re: No radio aircraft (NORDO)
Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 1:45 pm
by GraemeSmith
And in similar vein… 
I’m getting sick of pilots who call and fly right traffic at left traffic airports. (And so is the Boston FSDO who have put pilots on notice and are now monitoring KSFZ, KUUU and KBHB for instances which they have clearly warned will be certificate actions - not friendly counselling). We DO have a NORDO yellow Cub in the area who flies in for fuel at KUUU - he depends on pilots flying correct traffic patterns. And yes it would be nice if he used a handset. At least he waits till either end of the day when things are quieter.
But there is also the possibility of a genuine NORDO because of a radio failure who is hoping people are flying correct patterns. Like me three years ago at KMMK when my radio was receiving but was clearly not transmitting. I flew strict pattern with my head on a swivel and got down OK.
Re: No radio aircraft (NORDO)
Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:38 pm
by jaflint
NORDOs suck. No excuses in 2021.
Re: No radio aircraft (NORDO)
Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:44 pm
by tx_swordguy
Just a thought if it is getting bad enough, fly a tighter pattern and make a shorter approach. Basically tight downwind and circular base into final as close as possible. You would then have (hopefully) any non radio traffic in sight from the downwind view and you would get down with the runway and short base to final in clear sight. In a left hand pattern the entire runway would stay in sight off your 9-11 oclock and if by chance you missed someone farther out not transmitting he will probably see you turning broadside to final (again hopefully). He might get pissed because you cut him off, but you didn’t know he was there to begin with. I usually do a downwind at 1/4-1/2 mile and pull 2 notches of flaps doing about 80 abeam the numbers. It slows me down to about 60 and I keep that all the way to flare. Its tight but I feel safe if my engine dies I just slip hard if needed but I am close to the airport and I can see what is around me. Obviously it doesn’t work if someone announces ahead of me. I then stretch it out as far as needed. I don’t know the fix for not using the radio. There is an airport about 50 miles east of me that non-announced landings are annoying/dangerous and I have had to do go arounds because of it. This particular airport is over 6k long and I have attempted a landing (announced intents) while a non announced plane came in on the opposite runway. I had to sidestep (thanks to a taxiing airplane alerting me). It is a bit nerve racking. I do agree a $120 radio is not a lot to spend on safety.
Mark
Re: No radio aircraft (NORDO)
Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:57 pm
by Rynoth
I imagine some of those same pilots also don’t use turn signals while driving. Which actually IS against the law.
Re: No radio aircraft (NORDO)
Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:01 pm
by builderflyer
jaflint wrote:NORDOs suck. No excuses in 2021.
Exactly, Jason, and right on point. I’m not one to ask for more FARs but I believe it’s time for a new one that makes it mandatory to have and use one’s com radio (and on the correct CTAF if not a Class D or higher airport), at least at all public airports. There are too many pilots that don’t take this seriously and I don’t want to be one of those who die because of it. During most of my flying days, I flew out of controlled airports but now it seems to be the other way around; it’s a whole different world having to deal with CTAFs and the crazy reality that radio communication is still legally optional.
Art,Sonex taildragger #95,Jabiru 3300 #261
Re: No radio aircraft (NORDO)
Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:22 pm
by Jgibson
But apparently you ARE asking for more FAR’s.
Can it be frustrating: sure. But we have been flying for many years with a mix of radio and non and the best protection is vigilance outside the cockpit. Too many of us are concerned with glass panel information, radio use, and other distractions rather than looking outside and actually flying.
So because we may choose (which is perfectly within our right) to fly a plane with poor visibility we should dictate what other’s MUST do? On one hand we all complain about over-regulation yet we then advocate for yet another weapon for the FAA to penalize and cost us more money.
This is EXACTLY what has led to transponder and ADS-B mandates which have cost all of us money over the years. Does any of it make us safer? If you are under that illusion, ask those two pilots a few weeks ago who collided in the pattern TALKING and UNDER POSITIVE CONTROL. (The Cirrus and the commuter).
My point is NOTHING will make flying 100% safe and it’s up to us to be aware, keep your eyes and head up, and actually fly the plane.
I have flown both radio and non (which is perfectly within MY right). Have I had frustrating issues in the pattern with both? You bet. But I’ll deal with those frustrations rather than ask Big Brother to enact yet another ‘rule’ and who am I to mandate how another pilot spends his money. It’s not as easy as 'spending $120 on a radio. Headsets. Batteries. Lack of storage space in a small cockpit. Etc. Etc.
I myself was involved in a crash due to an engine failure. We had the runway made, but a ‘modern’ pilot taking instruction decided to ‘take the active and hold’ causing us (with no power) to try not to hit him.
Fly the plane.
Take every precaution. Be courteous. Be safe. But be careful when you ask the FAA for ANYTHING to help keep us safe. Every airport isn’t a Class C, D, or B and shouldn’t be treated as such.
Fly safe.
Re: No radio aircraft (NORDO)
Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 10:24 pm
by GraemeSmith
Jgibson wrote:This is EXACTLY what has led to transponder and ADS-B mandates
Actually ADS-B is to more precisely locate aircraft by GPS - than radar and transponder can ever do - so as to be able to reduce spacing safely and so effectively increase the capacity of existing routes. Also allows for more “Direct” routes to save fuel compared to flying from VOR to VOR. And by spacing and timing aircraft more accurately - stacking planes in holds next to major airports has almost been eliminated.
The papers postulating this idea were all being published in the early 1990’s.
The actual implementation is continuing. The whole of the lower 48 is now such that as you depart the west coast - your landing slot and time are already identified on the east coast. As weather, emergencies, deviations and the like from thousands of aircraft messes with “the plan” - the whole system reacts and aircraft speeds and spacing are altered to keep traffic moving. To sit in a Center and watch the whole thing processing is almost like watching an organic being.
And the ADS-B mandate is not in place where traffic doesn’t warrant it.
I’d even argue that your freedom to keep flying free in the NAS near busy Class B/C airports is because you DO have an ADS-B. Even if you don’t participate in ATC or VFR Flight Following - your movements are still being taken account of to keep others moving safely around you.
Re: No radio aircraft (NORDO)
Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:17 am
by Jgibson
But let’s be realistic here. ADS-B is primarily a benefit to the commercial aviation segment. Here on the East Coast, almost ALL of the airspace is covered by the mandate. Are we any safer now that Big Brother knows exactly where you are at all time in addition to exactly who you are? Now it’s easier to ‘violate’ and punish rather than to educate to actually make aviation safer.
Have the accident rates gone down? Even in the face of declining pilot numbers and number of flights, accident rates remain steady and in some segments, increases.
The majority of us don’t give a hoot about ‘the system’ even if it’s an improvement. We want to fly. Commercial aviation needs and wants the system, not necessarily for safety but just as much for economic efficiency so more landing slots can be created to move more freight and passengers.
But we’re forced to participate AND fund this newest boondoggle for the illusion of ‘enhanced safety’.
The majority of the folks reading this and participating in this forum will NEVER receive benefit of the thousands of dollars we’re forced to spend on ‘new technology’ such as new transponders, WAAS position indicators, etc. We’re told that our ‘benefit’ is the ability to ‘see’ traffic on our screens and see time delayed weather, which doesn’t do a darn thing to actually ‘see’ traffic out of the window.
Mandated radios for everyone is actually detrimental to safety. Spend time listening to the pattern on any given good weather weekend. Everybody wants to be an airline pilot on the radio while never saying anything useful. Who cares what your ‘N’ number is? Are you high or low wing? What color is your plane? What is your ‘REAL’ altitude and how far are you ACTUALLY from where you just announced? It’s amazing how many people have no real situational awareness but rely on ‘screen’ information.
These sort of suggestions remind me of the arguments about ultralights when they first started flying into our local airports. They were too slow which made it unsafe for the rest of aviation. They were hard to spot in the pattern. They had no radios. So many airports banned them altogether.
Sorry for the long post, but I truly believe that we’re NOT better off by asking Big Brother to further ‘manage’ our hobby. The NORDO guys are just another segment of aviation usually flying older airplanes and struggling to remain in a hobby that is getting more prohibitively expensive all the time.
And please don’t think my beliefs are because I fly one. I’ve flown a LOT of different types of planes, and have a fully capable IFR machine now. Mandated radios make NO ONE safer or NO ONE a better pilot. Proficiency, situational awareness, good traffic scans and vigilance do.
Re: No radio aircraft (NORDO)
Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 8:43 am
by DCASonex
Full ADS-B in and out is great for me. When multiple aircraft are in the pattern, can at least see some on screen then only have to worry about monitoring position of those without ADS-B Out. Can also see them approaching the area before they announce entering the pattern so can be watching for them. Also, unless you are communicating with traffic control, you can use anonymous mode on ABS-B out. With my Garmin GDL-82 I have a panel switch to select Standard or Anonymous mode. I do not post a sign on the door saying house unoccupied help yourself when I go to the store, and see no reason to do the equivalent by posting full ID with ADS-B. Anonymous mode still shows accurate position which is its primary function.
David A.
Re: No radio aircraft (NORDO)
Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 9:49 am
by pfhoeycfi
The no radio guys generally know where they are. The ones that scare me routinely fly fully equipped fast airpanes heads down right through the pattern of our airport scattering gliders and towplanes and visiting aircraft as they proceed on their 10 mile final approach to the airport 5 miles past ours. Even with all that automation they have no clue where they are. Our gliders are radio and transponder equipped and our towplanes have adsb.
Re: No radio aircraft (NORDO)
Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 10:03 am
by builderflyer
Jgibson wrote:Mandated radios make NO ONE safer or NO ONE a better pilot..
Writing as someone who came within 30 feet of dying twice in the past year, I can easily say your determination is pure bs. In both of these incidents, the other pilots should have been able to see me but somehow didn’t and my aircraft’s blind spots didn’t allow me to see them. And neither of them were on the radio for me to learn of their presence or for them to learn of my presence.
As I said, I’m not one who promotes the passage of new FARs…I opposed the inverted wedding cake grab of airspace, the requirement for ELTs, the mandatory flight review requirements for current pilots, etc. But the time for a mandatory com radio has long been overdue. There is no longer a valid excuse for any pilot to not own and use a com radio in the flying of their aircraft.
I’m doing what I can to make my Sonex better visible to others. For what they’re worth, I’ve added two more strobe lights for a total of 4. I’ve used adsb-in for several years now and I’ve just spent several thousand dollars to have a reliable ads-b out signal. And, probably to your annoyance, I use my com radio as much as anyone in announcing my position in arriving and departing airports with a CTAF.
My approach to flying has kept me accident/incident free for 56 years so, personally, I must be doing something right.
Art,Sonex taildragger #95,Jabiru 3300 #261
Re: No radio aircraft (NORDO)
Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:33 pm
by GraemeSmith
Jgibson wrote:But let’s be realistic here. ADS-B is primarily a benefit to the commercial aviation segment.
I’m going to respectfully disagree with you. The ability to fly freely (for me in New England) continues to be available because ATC can “see” you - even if you are not talking to them. The alternative would be to restrict our flying because they can’t see us and allow the Commercial Activity to proceed.
Jgibson wrote:Mandated radios make NO ONE safer or NO ONE a better pilot.
So how do you fly IFR?.. (Said with a smile)
Jgibson wrote:Proficiency, situational awareness, good traffic scans and vigilance do.
AGREED - and keeping the ADSB-IN is part of my scan. I “see” much more traffic and I’ll tell you one story where I think it saved me.
2016 - I had early ADSB-IN. Ohio headed west - straight and level @6,500 in a high wing Cessna on a long cross country. CAVU. Clear and a million. I got an alert for an aircraft that was behind me - and also descending onto me. It was getting closer and much more serious - so I broke left at 90 degrees to have a look above and behind me. It was a low wing Piper. It was a classic Low wing descending onto High wing where he could not see me below his cowl/nose bowl and I can’t see him above and behind my high wing. Given our proximity when I broke left - I truly believe the ADSB saved the day. See and Avoid did not.
It’s also interesting that the Canadians don’t completely buy into “See and Avoid” - they have investigated a number of mid-airs where straight and level flight and intervening aircraft structure meant that neither party could see each other.
–
ADSB is a tool. It’s as good as the use you make of it. It’s part of the toolkit. But not the only tool in the kit. I’m not a slave to it. Before I turn Base to Final - I am taking long hard visual looks along a projected runway centerline looking for traffic making a long final. And a good look ahead for the idiot flying an opposite base leg because they think it’s OK to fly right traffic at a left traffic airport. And then one very quick glance at the ADSB-IN before I make my turn.
Re: No radio aircraft (NORDO)
Posted: Fri Jun 25, 2021 6:42 pm
by Jgibson
Art;
I commend you for 56 years of accident free flying, but we are BOTH old timers so you have nothing on me. I’ve had more than my share of close calls, and one crash due to an engine failure AND a knucklehead more concerned with sitting on the runway and playing with his radios than taking off quickly.
Flying is inherently full of risks. Every time we take off, any number of things could end up disastrous. Are radios helpful? Sure. But they will NOT guantee your safety. A Cirrus-type chute would be much more confidence inspiring for me than a radio. Look at the collision statistics and let me know how many of the accident aircraft DIDN’T have radios.
Graeme;
I said I have a full IFR panel in my Arrow. I didn’t say I fly IFR. I have radios. I use radios. But I don’t bet my life on radios. I use them because I’m forced to use them in restricted airspace. They are almost useless under 5,000 feet because of the incessant chatter on a sunny day with too many airports using the same frequency and too many wanna-be’s trying to sound like real pilots.
Keep up ‘the quick glance’ in the pattern of your ADS-B and hopefully that ‘quick’ glance isn’t the time some wanna be professional pilot who has announced his incorrect position doesn’t run into you.
I have no problems with either viewpoints. If you guys want to depend on the technology, jabber and step on each other in the pattern and get frustrated, that’s your prerogative. All I’m asking is that we not ask for more regs from the FAA. YOU chose the Sonex, with it’s poor visibility forward. We all complain and moan about regs, but are WAY too quick to push the FAA for even more.
Re: No radio aircraft (NORDO)
Posted: Sun Jun 27, 2021 4:12 pm
by N190YX
“But let’s be realistic here. ADS-B is primarily a benefit to the commercial aviation segment.” Beg to differ, that is like saying all Air Traffic Control is primarily a benefit to the commercial aviation segment. There is a surprising amount of random air traffic a pilot is unaware of prior to ADS-B out and when an aircraft is equipped with ADS-B in the pilot is then aware of potential conflicts. As an early adaptor of ADS-B out and ADS-B in in my factory airplane I can attest to that. Like GPS, I would not want to go back to not having it. Writing about the Cirrus that collided with an airplane on final for a parallel runway in an ADSB context is absurb, the Cirrus was attempting to turn base to final at 160 knots and of course overshot the turn and collided with the airplane on final to the other runway. ADS-B cannot help with rediculously poor piloting technique. Secondly, in regard to Big Brother knowing who you are and watching you, I received a “Brasher Warning” (“call this phone number after landing due to a possible pilot violation”) when I contacted a control tower for landing after a maneuvering practice flight. I was not communicating with ATCduring the flight but they knew who I was due to ADS-B out. They simply wanted to educate me (not violate me) for a mistake I made by flying over an airport with the parachute symbol on the chart when there was active parachute activity at the time I flew over. Good to know, I will never do that again! At least here in Northern California the FAA is not just out to violate you. I have no complaints and have heard none from other pilots about the service NorCal (local controllers) provides in Northern California and the Reno area. Yes, we are free to fly, but keep in mind there are others exercising their freedom to fly also, the sky is not empty. Generally, regulations are promulgated to solve a problem. Endeavor not to be part of a problem that results in a regulation!