Mini Sump Oil Change
Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2015 8:48 pm
by gammaxy
I was surprised when I removed the drain plug and no oil came out. Turns out the spring pressed the bypass valve against the hole tight enough to create a seal. I had to use the hole in the side of the mini sump to drain the oil. This seems to defeat the purpose of the bypass valve since there’s no way for oil to reach it.
There is a chance I installed the top seal upside down since it wasn’t obvious which way it goes (now I know the curved surface goes up). Edit: There are indentations in my seal that indicate I installed it correctly. My filter doesn’t have the flat lip that is shown in the documentation–it is conical instead. I’m not certain flipping the seal will make a difference. How much gap is everyone else seeing between the drain plug and bypass valve?
I bought the Empi 17-2872-0 Mini Sump online and not from Sonex. There’s a chance that mine isn’t exactly the same as what Sonex sells.
Re: Mini Sump Oil Change
Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:42 pm
by SonexN76ET
Chris,
I bought my mini sump oil filter from Sonex. I only get a few drops if I remove the bottom plug too.
Sonex says you MUST clean the filter at every oil change. I think they are right because the filter really captures a lot of sludge. So I just pull the whole mini sump to let the oil drain and to clean the filter.
Jake
Re: Mini Sump Oil Change
Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2015 10:16 pm
by gammaxy
I can’t help but feel like the filter is not supposed to block the drain plug. Having the valve bottom out on the bottom of the sump means when I bolt the sump on, I could potentially be applying a significant amount of force against the pickup assembly and the spring is not serving any purpose except making the sump difficult to install and keeping the filter from sliding out of position–a task that could be performed just as well by a much shorter spring.
I feel like if the top seal was shorter by about 1/8" or slotted like the grommet on the bottom it might make better sense.
Removing the whole mini sump to drain oil sounds super messy. Have you figured out how to do it without making a mess?
Re: Mini Sump Oil Change
Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2015 12:09 am
by wlarson861
I remove the return line on the side of the sump to drain the oil. The drain plug on the bottom does not drain the oil as the oil would have to go through the fine mesh filter to exit the bottom oil drain. The side opening does not go through the filter element and drains freely. I have to remove the side fittings to get to the acorn nuts for the filter housing so its not that big an issue. I clean the filter on every oil change. It only requires one gasket so its the same price as the every other clean the screen at 50 hours!
Re: Mini Sump Oil Change
Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2015 1:14 am
by gammaxy
I might be misunderstanding something, but there is a bypass valve on the bottom of the filter that I assume is supposed to allow oil to bypass the filter if it is totally clogged. This is crammed against the drain so hard that there is no way it would ever pass any oil (unless maybe the filter becomes crushed). If the assembly was dimensioned the way I believe it should be, the bypass valve would be 1/8" or so above the drain plug allowing the bypass valve to function and allowing the drain plug to function correctly.
Surely whoever designed this thing didn’t intend for it to totally block the drain plug. Right? You have to admit that the top seal doesn’t even come close to looking like it’s supposed to fit the filter. I also like that I only need one gasket, but that is made up for by the clumsiness of it springing apart on me while trying to install the mini-sump against way more spring than should be required.
Re: Mini Sump Oil Change
Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2015 8:53 pm
by SonexN76ET
Chris,
The diagram that came with my Sonex mini sump filter show the top seal with the curved side to the filter. That is opposite of what you show in your picture.
I think what prevents more oil from draining from the drain plug is the bypass valve. It does sit in there pretty tight.
Jake
Re: Mini Sump Oil Change
Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2015 10:08 pm
by Darick
gammaxy wrote:I bought the Empi 17-2872-0 Mini Sump online and not from Sonex. There’s a chance that mine isn’t exactly the same as what Sonex sells.
I can’t seem to find the filter on the Sonex web site. Can you direct me to the location on their site?
Thanks.
Re: Mini Sump Oil Change
Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2015 10:09 pm
by gammaxy
SonexN76ET wrote:That is opposite of what you show in your picture.
Sonex’s Aerovee 2.1 Turbo instructions say: “Use the pick-up tube seal from the mini-sump kit that has the large hole. The curved surface goes toward the pick-up tube”. I’m pretty sure that’s how my picture shows it.
Re: Mini Sump Oil Change
Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2015 10:17 pm
by gammaxy
Darick wrote:I can’t seem to find the filter on the Sonex web site. Can you direct me to the location on their site?
It’s the ACV-P06-75 Mini Sump with Filter Kit. http://www.sonexaircraft.com/eshop/cart.php?target=product&product_id=17419
I understand it is required for use with the turbo. I thought I’d try it out on my normally-aspirated Aerovee.
Re: Mini Sump Oil Change
Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2015 10:21 pm
by Rynoth
I concur that Chris’ installation fits what I did per the Aerovee 2.1 installation manual and his quote of the manual. Page 40 of this document: http://www.aeroconversions.com/support/ … Manual.pdf
I agree Chris, that the fitment of the pickup seal seemed questionable at best. Just getting the mini-sump pressed deep enough to engage the nuts on the threads took a lot of pressure, and the seal seemed to fit pretty cockeyed. The bottom diameter of the seal doesn’t match the recess in the filter. If I recall, I replaced the studs in the case with longer studs in the sump hardware kit (this is not called for in the plans) just to make it easier to get the nuts on.
I haven’t yet changed my oil for the first time. When I do so I imagine I’ll initially drain the sump oil from the oil return line from my oil separator (or the plug that would otherwise connect to this line) before removing the mini-sump. Still probably a messy process.
Re: Mini Sump Oil Change
Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2015 10:31 pm
by kmacht
I can’t comment on the seal issue but do want to say thanks for the EMPI part number. The same filter setup sells for almost a third of what sonex is selling it for. I’m all for supporting Sonex but haven’t bought it because of the $165 price tag. At $60 with free shipping on amazon I’ll be putting one on during the next oil change.
Keith
#554
Re: Mini Sump Oil Change
Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2015 10:54 pm
by gammaxy
I emailed Sonex to ask what the difference is. They said they drill and tap a 1/4" npt hole in the side. I also did this on mine to install a magnetic drain plug (which came in handy when I needed to drain the oil). I have to admit that positioning this hole just right so you can install a fitting without drilling it so low that you drill into the bottom surface of the sump is a little tricky.
My hand-tapped hole has much better quality threads than the ones the drain plug screws into. I’m actually a little concerned if I fix my filter the way I believe it should work that I’ll end up with a leak through the drain plug.
Re: Mini Sump Oil Change
Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2015 11:01 pm
by gammaxy
Rynoth wrote:When I do so I imagine I’ll initially drain the sump oil from the oil return line from my oil separator […] Still probably a messy process.
I think this will actually be a pretty clean way of doing it if you could disconnect the hose and put put it in your catch pan and let it drain for 15 minutes or so while you work on other things.
I’m exposed to the wind whenever I do oil changes and the worst is when you get near the end and the wind is blowing the thin strand of oil all over the place 
Re: Mini Sump Oil Change
Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 10:04 am
by Sonerai13
We have found some variation in the fitment of the pickup tubes in the engines. On a couple of engines we’ve actually had to trim down the thickness of the black rubber seal that goes between the pickup tube and the filter. Yes, the curved side of the rubber seal goes “up” toward the engine pickup tube. I have trimmed the bottom (non-curved) side of that seal using a sanding disk. I’ve had to take as much as an eighth of an inch off to get the filter to fit on a couple of engines. Some engines the whole thing goes right in with no problem. Others it takes some work to get everything to fit.
Re: Mini Sump Oil Change
Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 10:41 am
by Klimek
…Both sides are “curved” Which should face upward, convex or concave?
It’s none of my business I know.
Frank
ONEX090
N1970T
~Hours
Taking to my shop to paint
Re: Mini Sump Oil Change
Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 12:24 pm
by Sonerai13
Klimek wrote:…Both sides are “curved” Which should face upward, convex or concave?
No, both sides are not curved. The seal has a convex curve on top, which mates with the concave surface of the “umbrella” around the oil pickup tube. the bottom of the seal is flat, and presses against the top of the filter element. The seal could be described (if you use your imagination) as a very short, very fat CCP pulled rivet with the mandrel removed. (How’s that for a stretch!!)
The design is not ideal. The seal would be better if it had a chamfer on the bottom to better mate with the top of the filter element. I have sometimes put such a chamfer on the seal, again using the sanding disk. It makes the whole thing go together better.
Re: Mini Sump Oil Change
Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 12:59 pm
by Rynoth
Or you could say it’s shaped like a mushroom with a very wide and short stem. Putting a chamfer on the bottom does seem like a good idea though.
Re: Mini Sump Oil Change
Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 1:47 pm
by Sonerai13
Rynoth wrote:Or you could say it’s shaped like a mushroom with a very wide and short stem.
Yep, I thought about using that analogy as well. A short, fat mushroom. Maybe that’s better than mine. Hopefully, one or the other will give everyone the idea.
Rynoth wrote:Putting a chamfer on the bottom does seem like a good idea though.
Yes, I agree. It has worked pretty well on the installations I’ve done. Like I said, every one seems to be a bit different. Sometimes a bit of “custom fitting” is needed.
Re: Mini Sump Oil Change
Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 2:33 pm
by gammaxy
I chucked mine onto my rotary buffer in place of the 3M Scotchbrite wheel (poor-man’s lathe) and used a coping saw to shape the bottom similar to the same dimensions of the grommet included in the kit. Now the top seal attaches nicely to the top of the filter just like the grommet and it is quite a bit more compact than before. I also like the solution of simply chamfering the edges.
It’s good to hear that Sonex recognizes that modifying the seal may be necessary on some engines.
Re: Mini Sump Oil Change
Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 10:15 pm
by SonexN369UR
Does the pick up tube fit down inside the filter??? Should the pick up tube slide inside? The hole on my filter is not big enough!! If I don’t enlarge the hole and just put it in place as the plans call for there is a gap between the flat part of the seal and the top of the filter as you face it??? What gives???
JACK
Re: Mini Sump Oil Change
Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 10:08 am
by gammaxy
Does the pick up tube fit down inside the filter??? Should the pick up tube slide inside?
The pick up tube should fit through the hole in the top of the filter. It sounds like you’re saying yours doesn’t fit even without the rubber seal in place. I imagine the solution will be to drill out the hole in the top of the filter so it will fit being careful to catch or clean out any chips in the process. Does the grommet with the bypass valve fit in the other hole?
Re: Mini Sump Oil Change
Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 12:08 pm
by vwglenn
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp … 13-17-2872
If you want to save a hundred bucks.
Re: Mini Sump Oil Change
Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 1:21 pm
by SonexN369UR
Thanks for the info. The filter does NOT fit over (down into filter) on either side. I will enlarge one of the filter holes as you suggest. It JUST DIDN"T SEEM RIGHT!
Again Thank you all!
JACK
Re: Mini Sump Oil Change
Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2020 6:44 pm
by pfhoeycfi
Rynoth wrote:I concur that Chris’ installation fits what I did per the Aerovee 2.1 installation manual and his quote of the manual. Page 40 of this document: http://www.aeroconversions.com/support/ … Manual.pdf
I agree Chris, that the fitment of the pickup seal seemed questionable at best. Just getting the mini-sump pressed deep enough to engage the nuts on the threads took a lot of pressure, and the seal seemed to fit pretty cockeyed. The bottom diameter of the seal doesn’t match the recess in the filter. If I recall, I replaced the studs in the case with longer studs in the sump hardware kit (this is not called for in the plans) just to make it easier to get the nuts on.
I haven’t yet changed my oil for the first time. When I do so I imagine I’ll initially drain the sump oil from the oil return line from my oil separator (or the plug that would otherwise connect to this line) before removing the mini-sump. Still probably a messy process.
Did you end up modifying your upper seal to make the fit better? My upper seal sits on the pickup tube so crooked & loose you would think its not made for this purpose…and there is no way its going to sit flat or flush on the filter…the seal just doesn’t appear that it was made to go with the filter…very odd.
Re: Mini Sump Oil Change
Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:04 am
by Rynoth
pfhoeycfi wrote:Did you end up modifying your upper seal to make the fit better? My upper seal sits on the pickup tube so crooked & loose you would think its not made for this purpose…and there is no way its going to sit flat or flush on the filter…the seal just doesn’t appear that it was made to go with the filter…very odd.
Yes actually, I chamfered the bottom of the oil seal to fit better into the top of the filter. This both made a better seal, and made the sump easier to install by reducing some of the spring pressure when fitting the sump.
Some discussion on the topic here: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2567&p=19279&hilit=chamfer#p19264
Re: Mini Sump Oil Change
Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2020 1:55 pm
by Area 51%
Has anybody measured how much oil this sump holds? Looks like about a cup. It would be nice to be able to dump in the whole 3 quarts.
Re: Mini Sump Oil Change
Posted: Tue May 04, 2021 4:50 pm
by flyingbear
My upper seal sits on the pickup tube so crooked & loose you would think its not made for this purpose…and there is no way its going to sit flat or flush on the filter…the seal just doesn’t appear that it was made to go with the filter…very odd.
This is exactly what I am seeing. Not a flush fit at all and does NOT seem to be the proper seal. This looks to be a VERY poorly engineered product. Any suggestions???
Re: Mini Sump Oil Change
Posted: Tue May 04, 2021 4:53 pm
by flyingbear
How does one even know the oil is going through the filter. ???
I am getting about 60 psi on startup which does NOT vary with RPM…something is wrong there. THEN my oil temp goes up to 250 and my oil pressure gradually, over ten min. of operation, drops to 11 psi regardless of rpm.
I cleaned my oil pressure plungers and passageways with no change.
Help …I am lost here.
Re: Mini Sump Oil Change
Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2022 12:30 pm
by pfhoeycfi
The mini-sump comes with a re-usable filter and I was wondering what solution builders are using to clean this filter with?
peter
Re: Mini Sump Oil Change
Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2022 2:40 pm
by Area 51%
It’s just a really fine metal screen. Gasoline works about as well as anything.
Re: Mini Sump Oil Change
by pfhoeycfi » Tue Apr 19, 2022 4:56 pm
I need to pull the oil sump stud that also has the nut inside to hold the pickup tube assembly in place. The stud is so short that it needs to come out. How do I loosen that nut inside so that I can unscrew the stud? I’ve tried every way imaginable to slip something in there to grab the nut…no success.
Peter Hoey
SEL Pvt, Comm Glider, CFIG, Pawnee & L19 Towpilot
Philadelphia Glider Council
Sonex B SNB0021, N561PH, Taildragger, Aerovee Turbo, MGL MX1, First flight Dec 18, 2022
Also built Sonerai IIL N86PH