max demo’ed crosswind component for sonex A TD
Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:10 pm
by n502pd
I put this question here under training as it seems appropriate. A fellow Sonex A TD owner and pilot, and I, are interested in finding what the Sonex world uses for the maximun demonstrated crosswind component for tail wheel landings, on grass and hard surface, and maybe also include what the takeoff max crosswind component is agreeable to most. I do understand that techniques are needed to land in a crosswind. What I would like to gather is what folks are using as go–no go limits. At the moment I am at 23 hrs TW time, and dont consider myself anywhere near competant for anything above 5 or 6 mph component on grass. What say you all, for grass and hard surface? thanks in advance!
Re: max demo’ed crosswind component for sonex A TD
Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:30 pm
by fastj22
Max demonstrated for my Waiex was a 20 knot direct crosswind (hard surface). Came in fast, wing down into the wind in a side slip, then three pointed it and full rudder to keep it straight. The tail wheel chattered as it tried to hold grip. Once I got slowed down, it was tame. I wouldn’t like any more cross wind.
My old tailwheel instructor told me that if on final and you don’t have enough rudder to side slip it in, then you are over the limit, do something else.
Re: max demo’ed crosswind component for sonex A TD
Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:11 pm
by Fastcapy
I have done 18 direct x-wind with my Sonex and I feel that was right about the limit of what it could handle. That was on pavement, I had about 75hrs in my Sonex at that point. Don’t really care to do it again, but know it can handle it.
Re: max demo’ed crosswind component for sonex A TD
Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:36 am
by MichaelFarley56
fastj22 wrote:Max demonstrated for my Waiex was a 20 knot direct crosswind
Would you please teach me your ways, O wise one?? Seriously, I would LOVE to have that capability in my Waiex!! In general, I consider my limit at around 8 knots total crosswind or else I’m simply out of rudder, regardless of which direction the wind is coming from.
John, when you land in crosswinds that strong, what flap settings do you use? What hints can you offer for those landings? I’ll be honest; when I’m on approach at 60-70 mph, I have plenty of rudder authority but as I set up for a 3 point attitude in the flare and speed bleeds off to 40 mph before touchdown, I loose a lot of that rudder authority (I don’t think there’s enough air going over the rudder at that point).
Having flown the straight tail Sonex, I do know know that model does better in crosswinds, and tri gear examples do even better.
Joe, approach crosswind capability slowly and carefully but when you’re landing on pavement, your airplane shouldn’t have an issue with 10-14 knots of crosswind and you’ll get maybe a little more on the grass.
Be safe!!
Re: max demo’ed crosswind component for sonex A TD
Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:35 pm
by n502pd
Thanks guys for the ecouragements! I am going slowly with phase one, issue by issue (there isnt that many, thankfully), and should be flying again after the wet season leaves and runway dries. My concern was the aircraft reactivity to crosswinds on the never tried yet hard surface landings for a really new TD driver. I will continue to be a live chicken with all my feathers in place!!
Re: max demo’ed crosswind component for sonex A TD
Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 10:52 am
by tx_swordguy
Hey Joe,
Sorry Finney has had so much rain this winter. Not that I am by any means an expert as you know (I am only approaching 60 hrs on my sonex since April '17). My x wind landings have maxed out to about 10 direct maybe gusting a bit above that. What works for me is wheel landings 1st notch of flaps and coming in a little faster maybe 80 until flare. Just keep it straight and once both mains are on the ground, push the stick into the wind (just steadily move it don’t jam it over) . As you slow down drop the TW and give full aft stick but keep it into the wind until you leave the active. on the ground Once you leave the active as you know stick goes back and into the wind if it is a head wind, but forward and away from the wind if it is tail wind as you move from point a to point b on the ground. What I have noticed in x winds as I slow down on the active if I don’t pull full aft stick it can still try to weather vein and the TW will skid on the pavement. When you get ready for pavement Gville is smooth and plenty long. As a side note I have seen it recommended that the sonex be wheel landed on pavement and 3pt on grass regardless of x wind or not. I cannot say that is right or wrong as my experience in the sonex is all but 3 landings on pavement. It did seem much easier to 3pt on grass though.
Mark
Re: max demo’ed crosswind component for sonex A TD
Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:41 pm
by LarryEWaiex121
Joe,
Larry here in Idaho. Waiex TD with 670 hrs in the last 7 years. Camit 3300 engine with a Jabiru 3300 prior.
Interesting you should bring this up. About 5 yrs ago, I had quite the spirited debate with Jeremy Monnett when he responded to my comment about the crosswind limitations on the Waiex compared to the conventional tail Sonex. He obviously thought my assessment was incorrect. We agreed to disagree. It was all good spirited.
Without going too deep, my contention was then and still is, that the conventional tail plane will handle a bit more crosswind than the Waiex. Believed it then, still believe that to be the case today. Taking off with a Waiex, with a 3300 taildragger and a stiff wind off the port side can turn into an interesting experience.
My comfort limit for crosswind sustained is 8kts on the left (90 degree) and 12 kts on the right(90 degree). I landed one time in Northern California on my way back from the Rio Linda Fly-in and the Sisku AWOS was calling 19kts gusting to 26 kts about 60 degrees off the runway heading at Montague just a few miles away. Wind was on the right side and I came down final with no flaps and 70 mph with the left rudder on the firewall. Right wing down about 5-8 degrees. At about 25 mph groundspeed on the roll out, I took a scenic off the right side of the runway. No amount of finesse was going to keep that plane on the runway. I stopped less than 15 feet off the edge. With care, I taxied back to the FBO, using all available controls to keep things put.
I encourage folks to remember that these are very light airframes and just don’t have the same capabilities of bigger and heavier aircraft. Flight planning, good decision making, all add up to safer flights and less bent up parts.
Re: max demo’ed crosswind component for sonex A TD
Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:37 pm
by mike.smith
14 kts is MY max demonstrated crosswind, and I usually won’t chose to go flying if it’s there. I do this for fun and not for adrenaline. And if you are not on your A-game with the rudder pedals, watch out. That little tail wheel will skid like an S.O.B. with so little surface area. As with anything in flying, you can get away with lots of things if you are lucky or just really good that day. But can you count on either, every day? If I have to ask myself, “do you feel lucky, punk,” then I stay home. 
Re: max demo’ed crosswind component for sonex A TD
Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 10:54 pm
by lpaaruule
Back when I when I had less than 10 hrs on the Sonex, I had a really bad landing in a crosswind (probably 10 or so kts) that caused my right wheelpant to shake, and catch on the wheel. So my right wheel “grabbed” the wheelpant, and locked up. This caused the plane to almost go over on it’s nose, but fortunately I had enough speed and was able to yank the stick back, and luckily the got the wheelpant came loose. After slowly exiting the runway, and taking a moment to calm down, I slowly started to taxi toward the fuel pumps. At about walking speed I did a groundloop, and thought the wind had blown me. I didn’t actually realize that my wheelpant was hanging by a thread until talking to a guy at the pumps; he actually saw it first. It was the wheelplant that caused me to groundloop.
I still at over 50 hrs haven’t bothered putting wheelpants back on yet. And no, I haven’t had any landing that even nearly that bad since.
Having said all that, I set my crosswind limit to 8 kts after the botched landing. Sure enough, one day it was exactly an 8 kt crosswind. I probably had about 15 hours on the plane by then. I flew around for a while doing stalls or whatever, and then tuned to AWOS as I headed back to land. To my surprise, the crosswind was now 14 kts, and gusty. I thought to myself, well this is it, and determined that I was going to keep the upwind wing down.
It wasn’t the prettiest landing, but my crosswind skill came back to me that day, and happily taxied to the fuel pumps while hearing a Diamond DA-20 go around.
My limit is now 14 kts. I don’t come in any faster than normal unless it’s gusty. I just put in a side slip, and keep flying the plane down the centerline until the tailwheel touches, then I pin it full back stick. If it’s gusty, I’ll apply some light brake and retract the flaps, to quickly remove as much lift as I can.
Re: max demo’ed crosswind component for sonex A TD
Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:26 pm
by n502pd
I have gotten loads of insite from all the responses, and I say thanks much!! I agree with no wheel pants early on in flight testing, and I removed mine at hr 1.o. I am doing only wheel landings right now as I and Sirpeedee get to know each other a bit better! Since the wx has not cooperating at all since before Christmas, I will probably have to get comfortable landing again before I consider both hard surface and crosswinds again. I agreee with the idea of having low limits on crosswinds, and not going flying if I am not comfortable. I do take razzing from the more experienced TW flyers, but like I said, I perfurr being a live chicken! It sort of looks like the consesus seems to be max xwind component is somewhere between 8 and, maybe 12 mph. some have had experiences higher than that, but the comment that the sonex is a very light aircraft and can be blown around easilly is probably the most important thing for us to remember, as I have already learned. All the comments are greatly appreciated, and has convinced me I am on the correct path! Thanks everyone!!
Re: max demo’ed crosswind component for sonex A TD
Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:51 pm
by GraemeSmith
Today 10th August 2019 - No real option but to deal with it as it was the most head to wind runway.
Wind 60 degrees left of runway 11G20
So X-Wind component 9G17
From the left which I consider my “better” side.
Sonex A
6" Tailwheel
Dry warm pavement
Left wing low and right rudder - pinned her on the left main and tailwheel @ 55KIAS and managed to track straight and stay on centerline till she stalled and the right main made contact.
Left wing was pretty low - but not that I thought it would scrape and I had some rudder left. Wasn’t a greaser - but not an ugly balloon either. Just rode it out in the correct position till she slowed enough.
Used 1,500ft of a 2 degree downslope 2,600ft runway.
“Sporty” springs to mind…
Re: max demo’ed crosswind component for sonex A TD
Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:02 pm
by n502pd
Thanks for the rundown! I have made one or two one wheel landings so far…30 hrs tt… and still watch the gust factor. I have trees and hangers here, and a semi rough grass field, and now a plowed field just immdeiately to the west of runway, so I have to still be more than adventuresome in launching. Further, I am at the total tail wheel time of 30 hrs, and will shortly go to hard surface to get that feel on landing, which I am told isnt too much to worry about. I am enjoying everything a lot, and plan to continue to be a ‘live chicken’! Some may say that is no way to look at things, but so far I have not been responsible for breaking my wonderful little bird!
Fly safe!!
Joe
Re: max demo’ed crosswind component for sonex A TD
Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:20 am
by thomasjones42
GraemeSmith wrote:Today 10th August 2019 - No real option but to deal with it as it was the most head to wind runway.
Wind 60 degrees left of runway 11G20
So X-Wind component 9G17
From the left which I consider my “better” side.
.
A couple of webinars and an Oshkosh forum say as a rule of thumb 60 degree winds off the landing heading is the X wind equivalent to 100 percent of the wind velocity so you may have done even a little better than you calculated.
Tom Jones
Re: max demo’ed crosswind component for sonex A TD
Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:47 am
by lpaaruule
For me, landings have been easier than takeoffs.
Perhaps it’s just my technique, but when I learned in a Citabria, I would be able to get the tail up, and bank into the wind before the plane left the ground. With the Sonex, it seems to take a lot more effort to get it on one wheel before takeoff. If I force it to bank into the wind before I leave the ground, it wants to roll very quickly as soon as the wheel leaves the ground.
Yesterday I had a direct right crosswind of about 8 kts, and the Sonex wanted to drag to the left before it left the ground. I had a good amount of aileron into the wind, but not enough to smash the wing into the ground when the wheels left the ground.
Any advice or insight is appreciated.
Re: max demo’ed crosswind component for sonex A TD
Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:51 am
by GraemeSmith
lpaaruule wrote:For me, landings have been easier than takeoffs.
Perhaps it’s just my technique, but when I learned in a Citabria, I would be able to get the tail up, and bank into the wind before the plane left the ground. With the Sonex, it seems to take a lot more effort to get it on one wheel before takeoff. If I force it to bank into the wind before I leave the ground, it wants to roll very quickly as soon as the wheel leaves the ground.
Yesterday I had a direct right crosswind of about 8 kts, and the Sonex wanted to drag to the left before it left the ground. I had a good amount of aileron into the wind, but not enough to smash the wing into the ground when the wheels left the ground.
Any advice or insight is appreciated.
Paul,
I can tell you that me tail X-Wind training in a Decathlon had the CFI demonstrate on the upwind wheel, upwind wing tip about 6 inches off the surface (remember this is a high wing) and the upwind wing tip leading the downwind tip, courtesy of the right rudder input. He had her running on rails along the runway. Though he was comfortable I try it - I was not and did it during a low pass with the plane about two feet off the surface while I found the attitude he was demonstrating.
I’ve never been able to get the Sonex to do anything like it - but I find a firm stick into wind and firm opposite rudder keeps her tracking straight. I find there is more steering on offer from the amount of aileron input into wind than the amount of opposite rudder. She is very briefly on one wheel as she breaks ground and then I neutralize the stick let her rudder weather vane so she tracks runway heading, crabbed into wind. Lotsa fun and still playing with it.
YMMV