Leaky exhaust valves

Leaky exhaust valves

Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 11:24 pm

by rizzz

Went for a flight the other day and before going out I manually rotated the prop.
I noticed considerably less compression on 2 (#4 and #3 I believe) of the cylinders, also, I can hear a hissing in the exhausts during compression.
Leaky exhaust valves? Certainly showing all the symptoms…

I took the plane out for a flight hoping the problem would go away on a hot engine and while it was much better when the engine was hot, the difference in compression was still noticeable and the hissing noise was still there.

I’ll have to remove the heads and take them to my VW guy for a service/valve job, hopefully they can be saved.
In any case, it looks like I’m grounded for a while :frowning:

FYI, my heads are Mofoco 042’s, machined for 94mm and dual ignition.


Re: Leaky exhaust valves

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:56 am

by kmacht

If you haven’t already, check your valve adjustment first before pulling the heads. I have had similar issues and it almost always was due to the engine needing the valves adjusted back to .006. It doesn’t take being off by much for the exhaust side to be too tight and cause the valve to open too early.

Keith
#554


Re: Leaky exhaust valves

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:42 am

by intoaircooled

I would agree with check the valve adjustment first. I would go with the .008 on the exhaust valve and .006 on the intake. As everything heats up and expands the exhaust valve could use the extra clearance for good valve seal. Just my 2 cents.


Re: Leaky exhaust valves

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 1:32 pm

by N190YX

Guys, if your airplane is not 100%, please don’t fly it! The notion of flying an engine that is not 100% to see if the issue will correct itself is a recipe for a disaster! Leaky exhaust valves result in the valve overheating and burning, and can also result in the valve failing. Which happened to me with a 1969 VW Bug I bought new, and kept the valves adjusted properly, but at 39,000 miles it swallowed an exhaust valve and seized, the head of the valve broke off (#3 cylinder that gets a little less cooling air due to the oil cooler in the plenum). TCM Continental allows no leakage past an exhaust valve, if leakage is detected in a compression test, the engine is not airworthy, the cause must be corrected. I repeat, please do not fly if your entire airplane is not 100% operational. We have got to keep our safety record as good as we can!


Re: Leaky exhaust valves

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:57 pm

by rizzz

Thanks guys,

I will check the valve adjustment first.
It’s now been about 15 hours since the last one.
If that does not fix the issue I’ll remove the head(s).

N190YX, I hear what you’re saying.
The wise thing to do would have been to just go for a run-up to get the engine warm.


Re: Leaky exhaust valves

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:59 pm

by intoaircooled

Calm down N190YX, I didn’t see anyone offer anything but advise on valve adjustments. Next course of action would be a good warmup and full power run up then and a leak down compression test. Just before you decide to push it off a cliff :slight_smile:

So far the only problem that ever fixed itself is our government,if u can believe that I have some health insurance I would like to sell you.


Re: Leaky exhaust valves

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:37 pm

by gammaxy

N190YX wrote:Guys, if your airplane is not 100%, please don’t fly it! The notion of flying an engine that is not 100% to see if the issue will correct itself is a recipe for a disaster! … TCM Continental allows no leakage past an exhaust valve, if leakage is detected in a compression test, the engine is not airworthy, the cause must be corrected. I repeat, please do not fly if your entire airplane is not 100% operational. We have got to keep our safety record as good as we can!

TCM Continental no longer has the strict “no leakage” rule for valves–they replaced it almost 15 years ago with SB03-3. They have a calibrated orifice that seems to correspond to around 45/80 on most testers. They recommend you do a borescope inspection, fly, and retest if you fail it. I think they got smart and realized the previous rule was unrealistic.

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/ … lletin.pdf


Re: Cylinder Heads

Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:18 pm

by Eisenflyer

Hi, has anybody in the Sonex community checked out the new cylinder heads from cbperformance, “Panchito 044”
they look like the right design for the Sonex, much better cooling features than the regular VW heads.


Re: Leaky exhaust valves

Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:54 am

by mike.smith

rizzz wrote:Went for a flight the other day and before going out I manually rotated the prop.
I noticed considerably less compression on 2 (#4 and #3 I believe) of the cylinders, also, I can hear a hissing in the exhausts during compression.
Leaky exhaust valves? Certainly showing all the symptoms…

You don’t have the Nickasil cylinders, do you? If you say yes then I’ll tell you what may be up. If you say no then disregard :slight_smile:


Re: Leaky exhaust valves

Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:14 am

by rizzz

mike.smith wrote:

rizzz wrote:Went for a flight the other day and before going out I manually rotated the prop.
I noticed considerably less compression on 2 (#4 and #3 I believe) of the cylinders, also, I can hear a hissing in the exhausts during compression.
Leaky exhaust valves? Certainly showing all the symptoms…

You don’t have the Nickasil cylinders, do you? If you say yes then I’ll tell you what may be up. If you say no then disregard :slight_smile:

I have the Nicom cylinders from Hummel, they are essentially Nikasils (nickel silicon carbide) but I believe the NiComs have chrome in them as well or so I’ve read somewhere.
I did ask Scott about them when the whole AeroVee Nikasyl issue happened and he said he never had issues with his brand, he still puts them on his engines as far as I can see now.

But yes, the thought has crossed my mind… you had problems with yours didn’t you?

Re: Leaky exhaust valves

Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:43 am

by Klimek

Gentlemen,
At 37 hours I replaced the exhaust valves on my AeroVee. Being an old VW tech, I have rebuilt too many VW engines due to a burned or broken #3 exhaust valve.
I had an excessive amount of leakage from two cylinders. Now at 80+ hours and at least 6 valve adjustments, it seems something needs to be done again. The exhaust valves were always tight. I set the exhaust at .008 and intake at .006. The exhaust valve clearance closed 3-4 thousandths after 10-12 hours of operation. I kept the temps below 400f on climb out and they run 310-325 in cruise. The face of the first set of exhaust valves were dished and seats seemed way too wide and evidenced leakage. I run 100ll and am considering using MOGAS from now on, as I set the compression ratio at 7.5:1 so I could run either fuel.
I have called about the “Panchito” heads but CIP no longer gives out info on the machine shop that can drill and tap for a second set of plugs, for liability reasons.
IF I could find someone who can and will do the machine work, I would consider installing a set of these heads. According to CIP they run cooler and have air flow on both sides
of the exhaust port. Looking at there website (California Import Parts) they are available in the same valve size and bored for the cylinders as used in the 2180 cc
AeroVee. Check them out, on the surface they look great.
If anyone has any ideas or suggestions or any reason I should not try them please chime in.
Other than being skittish about the valves, I love my AeroVee and AeroInjector.

Frank
ONEX 090
N1970T
At home polishing, painting, new windscreen, adding Aero Conversion hyd. disc brakes.


Re: Leaky exhaust valves

Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:09 am

by Area 51%

Not 100% sure, but I think Great Plains offers that service.


Re: Leaky exhaust valves

Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:22 am

by airscribe

Gotta chime in on the recommendation against flying if you believe the engine has issues; a ground-run, taxiing around, should warm the engine sufficiently to recheck for valve leaks and compression levels… Don’'t fly. There’s nothing to be gained in terms of warming the engine…

And feel compelled to comment on the prospect of the engine swallowing a valve…it’s not an automatic disaster…it is a challenge.

While there’s never, ever, a good place to suffer an in-flight engine problem, most pilots who suffer such a failure do survive…in fact, total engine failure for a swallowed valve isn’t an automatic outcome…many times the engine continues to run, albeit – and obviously – at far below normal power.

Three good friends of mine suffered such a failure…one in a Lyc-powered Cherokee, one in a Continental-powered Champ, one in a big-bore Continental powered Debonair…the latter two were at cruise altitude when their failures occured – luckily for them – and both found an airport close enough to nurse the plane to a safe, no-damage landing. The third fellow was doing pattern work; the engine made barely enough power for him to declare an emergency and cut from downwind directly to final…he ground-looped and damaged on gear and the wingtip on the same side as the gear.

In all three cases, cool heads and prior practice/training kept their incidents from unfolding into something worse.

And personally, suffered a seized exhaust valve in an O-200 in a Cessna 150 – a considerable distance from an airport…the engine continued to let me stay level; my decision: slip over to above a four-lane road that lead back to my departure airport, a decision requiring me to fly a longer return leg while keeping a landing option right below me until the last mile…going direct would have put me over urban and industrial landscapes with few-to-no open-space options…

It was a tense 12, 13 minutes, worrying that the engine might fail completely…the observer pilot flying with me told me later he would’ve gone direct – but when making the airport – I stayed at 2,500 agl all the way back – was a given he saw the point of the longer route…my fault for not verbally sharing my logic, but my attention was on flying the airplane and communicating our situation to the approach controller handling me…

All’s well that ends well…and to end well, we gotta fly the airplane.

Dave


Re: Leaky exhaust valves

Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:16 pm

by NWade

airscribe wrote:Gotta chime in on the recommendation against flying if you believe the engine has issues; a ground-run, taxiing around, should warm the engine sufficiently to recheck for valve leaks and compression levels… Don’'t fly. There’s nothing to be gained in terms of warming the engine…

While I know everyone on this forum is well-meaning, I really do wish people would post their qualifications or experience when they make a recommendation for or against a procedure.

Lots of well-meaning people repeat old-wives-tales or information that they believe to be correct; but is actually incorrect, or at least misunderstood. As Kerry said in an episode of the Sonex Flight podcast: Newer builders & pilots tend to believe that anyone handing out advice automatically knows more than they do. This can lead people down the proverbial garden path, regardless of your intentions…

When it comes to warming the engine: Heat causes metal to expand, and therefore it can change the way the engine behaves and the result of tests (like compression and leak-down tests). So yes, it makes a difference in the strictest sense of the word. The question is: should you use the “cold” or “hot” readings as the “true” answer? And what does a difference between a cold & hot reading mean? Something may be gained; or it may not indicate a safe condition for flight at all. Without knowing more, none of us can say for sure. A blanket admonishment (or endorsement) is not helpful or wise.

Personally I defer to Mike Busch, an award-winning A&P who has lots of experience with air-cooled engines. Here’s one of his articles on compression, leakage, hot vs. cold tests, and a couple of other items.

Blanket statements on the internet without a careful explanation of why should always be considered suspect. Even if a line of reasoning is explained, the qualifications of the person doing the explanation should also be factored into how much value you place on the information.

Let’s use facts, not fear, to guide our decision-making and our safety.

–Noel
P.S. For my own experience: I’ve helped build and operate race cars - from 2.0l 4-cylinder Fords, to Miatas, to a 750hp V8 GT-1/Trans-America Series car. And a lot of the same theory and basic information carries over to any Otto-cycle gasoline engine. However, I’ll freely admit that I am at the beginning of my experience with AeroVees in particular and cannot offer specific advice about how they wear and change over time; or best practices with VW aircooled engines.


Re: Leaky exhaust valves

Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:57 pm

by N190YX

gammaxy wrote:

N190YX wrote:Guys, if your airplane is not 100%, please don’t fly it! The notion of flying an engine that is not 100% to see if the issue will correct itself is a recipe for a disaster! … TCM Continental allows no leakage past an exhaust valve, if leakage is detected in a compression test, the engine is not airworthy, the cause must be corrected. I repeat, please do not fly if your entire airplane is not 100% operational. We have got to keep our safety record as good as we can!

TCM Continental no longer has the strict “no leakage” rule for valves–they replaced it almost 15 years ago with SB03-3. They have a calibrated orifice that seems to correspond to around 45/80 on most testers. They recommend you do a borescope inspection, fly, and retest if you fail it. I think they got smart and realized the previous rule was unrealistic.

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/ … lletin.pdf

Note you can only fly a TCM engine (and this should be considered for any aircraft engine) with leakage past an exhaust valve is after a boroscope inspection shows a normal exhaust valve. Leakage past an exhaust valve is really bad, think about it, the hot gasses going through a closed valve that should be in total contact with the head for cooling between exhaust strokes of the engine.


Re: Leaky exhaust valves

Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:24 pm

by NWade

N190YX wrote:Note you can only fly a TCM engine (and this should be considered for any aircraft engine) with leakage past an exhaust valve is after a boroscope inspection shows a normal exhaust valve.

Excuse me, can you please provide a citation for this? Saying you can “only” fly the engine implies that the procedure is mandatory.

If your source is the “Service Bulletin” that was referenced in the previous post, its worth noting that Service Bulletins are not mandatory (with a few narrow exceptions - including when they are incorporated into an AD and incorporated into a Users/Owners/Maintenance manual).

Thanks,

–Noel
P.S. I’m not trying to be a jerk; but the claim goes perfectly to my earlier point about well-meaning facts and careful explanations.


Re: Leaky exhaust valves

Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:57 pm

by rizzz

For those who have had to replace the valves and service the heads on your VW conversion,
Did you need to replace/recut the pushrods as well after this or would the old ones still fit?


Re: Leaky exhaust valves

Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 6:14 pm

by Brett

Old pushrods were fine. I’ve had different heads done 3 separate times. My local machine shop usually cuts the seats for me on the exhaust valves and my bill often is around $40-$100 depending on time taken to do all 4 valves and test for leaks. So far I haven’t actually needed to change any valves yet. This would no doubt bump the cost up.


Re: Leaky exhaust valves

Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 6:59 pm

by rizzz

Klimek wrote:I have called about the “Panchito” heads but CIP no longer gives out info on the machine shop that can drill and tap for a second set of plugs, for liability reasons.
IF I could find someone who can and will do the machine work, I would consider installing a set of these heads. According to CIP they run cooler and have air flow on both sides
of the exhaust port. Looking at there website (California Import Parts) they are available in the same valve size and bored for the cylinders as used in the 2180 cc
AeroVee. Check them out, on the surface they look great.
If anyone has any ideas or suggestions or any reason I should not try them please chime in.

Scott Casler at Hummel engines will do that, his website states $150 for a pair:
https://www.hummelengines.com/price-list


Re: Leaky exhaust valves

Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 7:05 pm

by Corby202

Here’s one of his articles on compression.
That is an interesting link that Noel posted. For us Jabiru owners (in Aus anyway) regular leak down tests are required. I also believe there are so many variables doing that test. I think the best practice is to have your own leak down tester with a known orifice size and keep that tester along with a compression tester for all tests.It is the best way to know the condition of YOUR engine as you can compare test to test correctly.

Re: Leaky exhaust valves

Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 7:29 pm

by mike.smith

rizzz wrote:

mike.smith wrote:

rizzz wrote:Went for a flight the other day and before going out I manually rotated the prop.
I noticed considerably less compression on 2 (#4 and #3 I believe) of the cylinders, also, I can hear a hissing in the exhausts during compression.
Leaky exhaust valves? Certainly showing all the symptoms…

You don’t have the Nickasil cylinders, do you? If you say yes then I’ll tell you what may be up. If you say no then disregard :slight_smile:

I have the Nicom cylinders from Hummel, they are essentially Nikasils (nickel silicon carbide) but I believe the NiComs have chrome in them as well or so I’ve read somewhere.
I did ask Scott about them when the whole AeroVee Nikasyl issue happened and he said he never had issues with his brand, he still puts them on his engines as far as I can see now.

But yes, the thought has crossed my mind… you had problems with yours didn’t you?

Yes. The walls of the cylinders were too thin to stand up to normal temperatures and torque values. The tops of the cylinders, where they contact the heads, were rolling over and mushrooming. So the heads were getting closer to the engine block each time I reset the torque, and that would decrease the gap between the valves and the rocker arms until they were in constant contact, making the valves leaky (they would never fully close). That also burned my first set of valves, but at the time I didn’t understand what was happening, so I put the heads back on the bad cylinders after replacing the valves.

The real clues were twofold: 1. Every time I checked the torque on the heads the nuts had to move to get the torque to specs (on my cast iron heads the torque has stayed put, and the nuts have never needed tightening), and 2. regular oil analysis showed high levels of things like nickel (the nickasil) and iron (piston rings) and aluminum (the cylinder walls under the nickasil).

Here’s my Kitlog entry.
http://www.mykitlog.com/users/display_l … 380&row=38

Absolutely no issues since changing to cast iron cylinders.


Re: Leaky exhaust valves

Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 8:08 pm

by rizzz

mike.smith wrote:Yes. The walls of the cylinders were too thin to stand up to normal temperatures and torque values. The tops of the cylinders, where they contact the heads, were rolling over and mushrooming. So the heads were getting closer to the engine block each time I reset the torque, and that would decrease the gap between the valves and the rocker arms until they were in constant contact, making the valves leaky (they would never fully close). That also burned my first set of valves, but at the time I didn’t understand what was happening, so I put the heads back on the bad cylinders after replacing the valves.

The real clues were twofold: 1. Every time I checked the torque on the heads the nuts had to move to get the torque to specs (on my cast iron heads the torque has stayed put, and the nuts have never needed tightening), and 2. regular oil analysis showed high levels of things like nickel (the nickasil) and iron (piston rings) and aluminum (the cylinder walls under the nickasil).

Here’s my Kitlog entry.
http://www.mykitlog.com/users/display_l … 380&row=38

Absolutely no issues since changing to cast iron cylinders.

Hmmmm looks bad,
I’ll be heading to e airport tomorrow to find out what’s going on, we have a borescope in our local SAAA chapter so I will use that first before pulling anything.

It’s a shame about the quality of those nickasils currently on the market. Most are cheap chinese knock-offs.
I’m not sure where Hummel sources their NiComs though but I’m hoping for the best. They look quite different from the AeroVee and GP ones.

If I had the money I’d by a set of the original LN Engineering “Nickies” (http://lnengineering.com/products/airco … ?limit=all), everyone on the VW forums raves about those, but at almost $3500/set they darn expensive, too expensive!


Re: Leaky exhaust valves

Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:08 pm

by radfordc

Is there any value to the Nickasils other than the weight difference?


Re: Leaky exhaust valves

Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:47 pm

by rizzz

radfordc wrote:Is there any value to the Nickasils other than the weight difference?

It is claimed they cool better.


Re: Leaky exhaust valves

Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 1:54 pm

by N190YX

NWade wrote:

N190YX wrote:Note you can only fly a TCM engine (and this should be considered for any aircraft engine) with leakage past an exhaust valve is after a boroscope inspection shows a normal exhaust valve.

Excuse me, can you please provide a citation for this? Saying you can “only” fly the engine implies that the procedure is mandatory.

If your source is the “Service Bulletin” that was referenced in the previous post, its worth noting that Service Bulletins are not mandatory (with a few narrow exceptions - including when they are incorporated into an AD and incorporated into a Users/Owners/Maintenance manual).

Thanks,

–Noel
P.S. I’m not trying to be a jerk; but the claim goes perfectly to my earlier point about well-meaning facts and careful explanations.

I wrote about exhaust valve leakage based on my experience of owning an IO-470 TCM Continental engined airplane for 37 years (still flying it) and doing my own maintenance (under the supervision of an A&P IA), and having had a VW engine swallow an exhaust valve head that broke off the valve stem (the engine seized immediately with metal throughout the engine, the valve head caused a hole in the piston), and on following what I consider to be reasonable guidance from TCM regarding leakage past an exhaust valve. Hey, we can’t pull over to the side of a road when our engine fails, and to read that, well, you can survive most engine failures in flight - If you think taking an unnecessary chance on an engine failure in flight is OK, you should not be flying, you don’t have the judgement. Blunt statement, but we pay higher insurance rates due to pilots doing risky things. Please think about this.


Re: Leaky exhaust valves

Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 5:13 pm

by SonexN76ET

One possible way to protect your valves from leaking early due to carbon fouling is to use Decalin or TCP fuel additives. I checked with Sonex before I started using it and while they do not explicitly recommend it, they did say people had reported good results with it. (Just be careful to read the directions as you put very little in to mix with ten gallons of 100LL, I am talking just a tablespoon or so per the directions. One guy mistakenly poured a whole bottle in his Sonex’s fuel tank and had some bad results with reduced power output). On a SportCruiser with a Rotax 912, it was required to use the Decalin fuel additive when using 100LL to prevent fouling). So far, I have noticed no ill effects using the Decalin over the past fifteen hours.

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/Decalin.php?recfer=1914

Sonex had also recommended that I ensure that I was not running too rich and warned that a too rich mixture can lead to valves and sparkplugs fouling. I now lean my mixture after landing when taxiing back to the hangar. I do not lean my mixture when taxiing to the runway for takeoff because of the off chance that I would fail to go to full rich for takeoff which could cause the engine to fail on takeoff due to a too lean of mixture. I lean in flight to stay in the upper range of the green for my CHTs and EGTs.

The other thing you can do is make sure your cooling baffles are adequate and do not leave any gaps that the air can escape through. You want pressurized air going through the cooling fins and ducts on your engine. High pressure on the top of the engine flowing through the cooling ducts and fins on the cylinders and heads and into the supertins on the bottom and into the low pressure below the engine and out into the slipstream. One thing I did not initially pay attention to is that gaps at the front of the engine in your baffles can cause a significant amount of air bypassing the engine. Another place that allows air to escape is in the corners of the baffles at the rear of the engine. The reason head cooling is important and related to valve fouling is that some people run their mixture excessively rich in an effort to keep their CHT’s in the green. That excessively rich mixture used to offset poor head cooling causes the valves and sparkplugs to foul with carbon and lead.

I also wanted to make a comment on the proposition in this thread to look at different cylinder heads. On the surface the CB Panchito 44 heads look promising. I do not think I would like to be the first one to try them in flight though. One configuration issue I saw was the intake ports are milled significantly more inboard than the conventional heads. This would require probably using a spacer like the one Sonex uses with the MOFOCO heads but having them machined to create a smoother joint with the Aerovee intake elbow or having custom intakes made.

I agree with N190YX that you should not fly with any known deficiencies. Always double check everything and if something needs fixing then fix it before you fly.

On that note, pulling the heads on an Aerovee is very easy and very simple. It takes me about 15 minutes per head. My local machine shop will do a valve job on the pair of heads for around $150. Then when you reinstall them all you need is new exhaust gaskets, new push rod tube seals (I highly recommend the white silicone ones. They do not leak!) and new copper cylinder head gaskets. It might take an hour per side to reinstall them. You will have to adjust your valves again when you reinstall the head and then again at 5 hours, torque the heads and adjust valves at 10 hours, and 25 hours, just like when you first built your engine. You will also have higher CHTs as the valve job breaks itself in over the next few hours. I am tempted to get a second set of heads and just change them out whenever I suspect a fouled valve (with a valve job done when I pull the heads and then have them ready to go for the next time). Aerovee heads are very inexpensive compared to certified heads or Rotax heads.

Anyway, this is just my two cents on my experience so far. Please put safety first when you fly. These planes are lots of fun, but they need to be treated with respect.

Jake


Re: Leaky exhaust valves

Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:06 pm

by mike.smith

SonexN76ET wrote:One possible way to protect your valves from leaking early due to carbon fouling is to use Decalin or TCP fuel additives. I checked with Sonex before I started using it and while they do not explicitly recommend it, they did say people had reported good results with it. (Just be careful to read the directions as you put very little in to mix with ten gallons of 100LL, I am talking just a tablespoon or so per the directions.

I have run TCP for 220 hours on my AeroVee engine and it works great. But the instructions are 30ml for every 10 gallons. That’s quite a bit more than a tablespoon. They sell a syringe for the TCP that is marked in ml; that’s what I use.


Re: Leaky exhaust valves

Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:08 pm

by mike.smith

rizzz wrote:
It’s a shame about the quality of those nickasils currently on the market. Most are cheap chinese knock-offs.
I’m not sure where Hummel sources their NiComs though but I’m hoping for the best. They look quite different from the AeroVee and GP ones.

I think if the cylinder walls were thicker then they would have worked fine.


Re: Leaky exhaust valves

Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:10 pm

by mike.smith

rizzz wrote:

radfordc wrote:Is there any value to the Nickasils other than the weight difference?

It is claimed they cool better.

I found that the Nickasil cylinders were VERY good at cooling. When I changed to the cast iron cylinders my temps were higher, but after break-in and a few minor modifications even the cast irons have run quite cool even in the dead of summer. (My cooling modifications are on my Kitlog site under the “Engine” heading.)


Re: Leaky exhaust valves

Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:05 pm

by rizzz

OK, just got back from the airport, despite trying the many suggestions, in the end the heads had to come off as nothing seemed to improve the situation.

Here’s what they look like, not pretty.
Right:

Left:

The cylinders look good though but the piston faces have the same burnt look.

Took them to my VW guy, his reaction:
Holy $#&!!" these have seen some heat, how lean are you running this thing???!!!

My response to that was, what do you mean? I always thought I was running too rich?

Re: Leaky exhaust valves

Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:39 am

by gammaxy

I’m no expert, but I think what you’re seeing is actually caused by the lead in 100LL and does not indicate you are running too lean. Does your VW guy have experience looking inside engines that have run 100LL?

http://www.shell.com/business-customers … 71600.html

Two of the exhaust valves look slightly green in the picture (might just be the picture). It would be interesting if those are the same valves that are leaking.

https://www.aopa.org/training-and-safet … lve-safety


Re: Leaky exhaust valves

Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:21 pm

by rizzz

gammaxy wrote:I’m no expert, but I think what you’re seeing is actually caused by the lead in 100LL and does not indicate you are running too lean. Does your VW guy have experience looking inside engines that have run 100LL?

http://www.shell.com/business-customers … 71600.html

Two of the exhaust valves look slightly green in the picture (might just be the picture). It would be interesting if those are the same valves that are leaking.

https://www.aopa.org/training-and-safet … lve-safety

I was thinking this was due to lead as well, I doubt I’m running too lean as I often have to lean out to make the engine run smoother.
I’m not sure if he has any experience with engines running 100LL, I guess not, but he did tell me to run normal 98 if I could.
I told him I have an AeroCarb and due to its sensitivity to air in the fuel system I have not tried this, even though I have my compression ratio set to allow for it (7.89)


Re: Leaky exhaust valves

Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:24 pm

by rizzz

In any case, he’s sending the heads off to be sand blasted, valves & seats fixed & checked and the surface contacting the cylinders cut to make sure there are no leaks there either.


Re: Leaky exhaust valves

Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 10:54 pm

by WaiexN143NM

Hi all,
Been using the tcp , its been around for 40+ yrs. aircraft spruce sells for $42.50 qt, and yes get the reusable siringe $5 , makes extract out of the can and measuring simple. Faa cert. For lycoming, continental, franklin engines. NON turboed aircraft.
Decalin, a few have posted here with good results. Never tried myself. Non certified. About $35 qt.
We use the tcp on our jab 3300. Yes, 30ml per 10 gal.
Prevents lead oxide build up. Plugs and valve train. Lots of aerovee posts here on valve train problems.
This may help some of the problems. Good luck and safe flying.

WaiexN143NM
Michael


Re: Leaky exhaust valves

Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 10:21 pm

by mike.smith

rizzz wrote:OK, just got back from the airport, despite trying the many suggestions, in the end the heads had to come off as nothing seemed to improve the situation.

Here’s what they look like, not pretty.
Right:
The cylinders look good though but the piston faces have the same burnt look.

Took them to my VW guy, his reaction:
Holy $#&!!" these have seen some heat, how lean are you running this thing???!!!

My response to that was, what do you mean? I always thought I was running too rich?

I dunno. From what is visible they look pretty good to me. They aren’t supposed to look shiny and new. Color pattern looks symmetrical. Tan color looks like normal lead bromide as pointed out in a previous post. I’m guessing to you your piston heads probably look like they are in bad shape with lots of pitting and rough areas. But it’s probably just normal lead deposits and the pistons are fine, unless you see scoring on the cylinder walls. Last time I saw the same thing I found that “nasty” stuff came off with a dental pick. It was just deposits.

Pictures can be deceiving, but nothing on the valve faces was jumping out at me.


Re: Leaky exhaust valves

Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 12:29 am

by rizzz

mike.smith wrote:I dunno. From what is visible they look pretty good to me. They aren’t supposed to look shiny and new. Color pattern looks symmetrical. Tan color looks like normal lead bromide as pointed out in a previous post. I’m guessing to you your piston heads probably look like they are in bad shape with lots of pitting and rough areas. But it’s probably just normal lead deposits and the pistons are fine, unless you see scoring on the cylinder walls. Last time I saw the same thing I found that “nasty” stuff came off with a dental pick. It was just deposits.

Pictures can be deceiving, but nothing on the valve faces was jumping out at me.

Here’s what the pistons & cylinders look like, lots of lead deposits indeed and it does come off with some effort.
I read somewhere oven cleaner is the stuff to use to get these cleaned up as long as it’s not left on there for too long. I’ll do some more research before I start spraying that stuff on there though.

In the meantime, I’m waiting for the heads to get serviced so not much else I can do at this stage.


Re: Leaky exhaust valves

Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:49 pm

by vwglenn

I wouldn’t use oven cleaner on there. Honestly I wouldn’t mess with them at all. All I would do would be to verify that the rings haven’t synced up.

As far as being worried about leaded fuel…these things originally ran on leaded fuel. Many moons ago, I used to run my bug on left over 100LL we pulled from aircraft tanks for maintenance. Why? Because it was free and my car was the only one at the shop that could run leaded fuel. I regularly bounced between 87 unleaded and 100ll. Bug didn’t care either way.


Re: Leaky exhaust valves

Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:10 pm

by mike.smith

rizzz wrote:Here’s what the pistons & cylinders look like, lots of lead deposits indeed and it does come off with some effort.
I read somewhere oven cleaner is the stuff to use to get these cleaned up as long as it’s not left on there for too long. I’ll do some more research before I start spraying that stuff on there though.

In the meantime, I’m waiting for the heads to get serviced so not much else I can do at this stage.

Those look to be in great shape. Better than mine looked :slight_smile: No need to go cleaning anything. It’s all well and normal.


Re: Leaky exhaust valves

Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:15 am

by rizzz

Thanks for the info guys, I feel a bit better about this now.
I’ll leave the pistons alone and just wait for the heads to get back.


Re: Leaky exhaust valves

Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:46 am

by Klimek

rizz,
From what I see the valves and head look good. The one area of concern is the dark area on the lower 1/3 of the #3 cylinder as compared to the #4.
This usually indicates a leak at the cylinder/head mating area. Maybe it’s just the camera angle.
Most old beetle style engines did not have a head gasket (copper ring) and leaks like this were common.
As you know, always install a new copper gasket after head removal.
Frank
ONEX 090

Re: Leaky exhaust valves

Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 7:52 pm

by rizzz

Klimek wrote:rizz,
From what I see the valves and head look good. The one area of concern is the dark area on the lower 1/3 of the #3 cylinder as compared to the #4.
This usually indicates a leak at the cylinder/head mating area. Maybe it’s just the camera angle.
Most old beetle style engines did not have a head gasket (copper ring) and leaks like this were common.
As you know, always install a new copper gasket after head removal.
Frank
ONEX 090

Thanks Frank,

I’ll have a look at that cylinder/piston again next time I’m at the airport.
I was not running any copper gaskets and my VW guy did tell me that after taking the heads off either I should use them, or,
pay an extra $90 and get the mating surface of the heads machined completely square and flat again, which is what I’m doing.
Do you believe we should always use the copper head gaskets? I have read different opinions on this topic.

Cheers,
Michael


Re: Leaky exhaust valves

Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 11:25 pm

by NWade

rizzz wrote:Do you believe we should always use the copper head gaskets? I have read different opinions on this topic.

FWIW, Sonex/AeroConversions is very clear in their manuals and always requires a copper gasket to be installed.

Why wouldn’t you use the gasket?

–Noel


Re: Leaky exhaust valves

Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 11:46 pm

by rizzz

NWade wrote:

rizzz wrote:Do you believe we should always use the copper head gaskets? I have read different opinions on this topic.

FWIW, Sonex/AeroConversions is very clear in their manuals and always requires a copper gasket to be installed.

Why wouldn’t you use the gasket?

–Noel

Hi Noel,
Mine is not an AeroVee. More like a Hummel (but not exactly).
I don’t believe Hummel use gaskets, not sure about GP or RevMaster.
Original VW bugs did not have them either as someone else mentions.
VW “experts” seem to have different opinions on copper gaskets, some say they do more damage than good, others say they are the best thing ever.
Just read this thread on one of the VW forums, the so called experts violently disagree on this topic:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewt … e7ede18100


Re: Leaky exhaust valves

Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 9:18 am

by Klimek

Michael,
I do believe the copper rings are the way to go. Prior to 1972, VW, on the 12, 13, 15 and 1600cc engines there were no head gaskets used. (copper rings) with the
introduction of the type II and type IV came the 1700cc engine which had a head gasket ring which was designed to crush and seal. This engine also had a new style
head studs, 10 or 12mm threads on each end (can’t remember which) but the shaft of the stud was 8mm, same diameter our AeroVee engines use. The stud is designed to stretch and be more forgiving
than the old 10mm stud used. I believe, in my experience, the 8mm stud is better at keeping the head tight against the cylinder with the use of a gasket, copper ring, therefore
almost eliminating head to cylinder leaks. The lower studs are also longer and can tend to stretch with heat more than the shorter upper studs, therefore proper and regular
maintenance is important. Generally the lower stud nuts are found to be of a lower torque value, “loser”, than the uppers, sometimes found laying the valve cover.
With all that said, yes, copper rings are the way to go. The addition of copper rings to your engine now will affect the compression ratio and so will require a recalculation
and probably machining and checking the cc’s of the head to get it back where you want it to be.
I could have just said “YES!” but that’s no fun.
Now going out to work on my ONEX.
Be safe,
Frank

ONEX 090


Re: Leaky exhaust valves

Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 11:06 am

by NWade

rizzz wrote:VW “experts” seem to have different opinions on copper gaskets, some say they do more damage than good, others say they are the best thing ever.
Just read this thread on one of the VW forums, the so called experts violently disagree on this topic:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewt … e7ede18100

Hrm. Its true that some people debate their usefulness on that Samba forum thread (and others). But I don’t see anyone presenting evidence that a copper gasket causes damage or problems. Yes, one or two people simply claim that the copper gasket is bad; but they don’t provide details or evidence as to why it is bad. They also don’t provide any credentials - they’re simply voices on the internet, and for all we know they could be completely ignorant of the subject matter. Saying that “experts” are disagreeing is a potential misnomer. Its easy to assume that people who make strong-sounding posts online are experts; but its a dangerous mental trap!

For instance: I’ve assembled other 4 to 8 cylinder engines for various auto-racing teams, but I’ll admit that my VW-based engine has yet to run.

Given my experience, though, I can’t see how the copper gaskets would do harm - as long as you install and torque everything properly. I might be overlooking something, so if you’ve spotted a specific argument against them that provides an explanation of how they’re bad then I’d love to see it. But random strangers on the internet complaining about cost or how they’ve seen gasketed engines fail? Those kinds of unsupported claims shouldn’t carry any weight.

–Noel

P.S. For anyone online that claims that the original VWs didn’t come with copper gaskets, remind them that some of their cars also didn’t originally come with seatbelts! Good ideas can come along later and make things better. :smiley:


Re: Leaky exhaust valves

Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:09 pm

by Fastcapy

I have done quite a bit of research into the copper gaskets.

My finders are this:

They are not used to seal the cylinder to head area. Some VWs had a sealing gasket to prevent exhaust gases in “stale air” systems, but it is not the same as the one we put in the head between the head and cylinder.

Many people simply use them for and many feel their actual purpose is to adjust deck height without using barrel shims. You can get steel in head shims to do the same but copper is better for heat differences.

Many like them for 2 main reasons. First, they will melt/be destroyed before the head. The resulting compression loss can actually prevent additional damage to the head, better to blow out a $30 gasket than a $300+ head. Second, they prevent needing to resurface the head where it mates to the barrel as the copper takes the abuse and not the aluminum head.

Some don’t like them but it seems to be more of a thing that they are not needed and are just something to waste money on. They also say but the original didn’t have them so why change it now. People say they have had heads fail using them, but people have had heads fail not using them as well.

So to most people in the car world it just seems to be a preference. I run them in my motor and will keep doing so because everything I have read about them, and it was a lot, the benefits outweigh the possible negatives. Even though they are not really a “head gasket” nor do they actually function like one (head gaskets are really only needed for liquid cooled motors to keep coolant and oil out of the cylinders and compression in the cylinders) they do seem to have other benefits for what little they cost.


Re: Leaky exhaust valves

Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:06 pm

by rizzz

I think I’ll install the head gaskets this time around, but I’m going to check with Scott at Hummel and my VW guy.
(although chances are I could get a different response from each and still have to make up my own mind).

This is what my numbers were:
Bore: 94mm
Stroke: 86mm
Combustion chamber volume: 66cc
Deck height 0.103"
Spacer used 0.020"
→ Compression ratio: 7.8:1

Adding a 0.040 copper head gasket would reduce my compression ratio to 7.3:1, still pretty good setup for use with both automotive fuel and AvGas (I’m seriously thinking of starting to use automotive whenever I can)

However, my heads are being flycut as part of the service so will need to remeasure the combustion chamber volume as it will likely reduce somewhat as well and possibly increase compression ratio again.


Re: Leaky exhaust valves

Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 10:13 pm

by WaiexN143NM

Hi rizz,
Before you switch to auto fuel, think about using 100LL and tcp. Auto fuel doesnt last long, maybe a month? And watch out for ethanol in fuel. Will toast your fuel probe if it has any ethanol. Some lead is good, maybe not as much as 100LL has. Most airports i visit dont have auto fuel. If you have any leaks you can identify from the blue dye. If its sits for a couple months its still good. Just my opinion. There may be some sonex drivers out there who use auto fuel exclusively and have good luck. I worry about vapor lock on a hot day and warm inside the cowl.

WaiexN143NM
Michael


Re: Leaky exhaust valves

Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 2:10 am

by Corby202

My GP VW did not use copper head gaskets, I never had any problems.

First, they will melt/be destroyed before the head

Isn’t the melting point of copper higher then aluminum??.


Re: Leaky exhaust valves

Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:39 am

by Klimek

Michael and Noel,
I hope my input was not taken wrong. I do not claim to be an expert.
My statement that most VW’s did not come with copper rings is a statement of fact and not thrown out there because I claim to be an expert.
I hope I just misunderstood the reply to my post. I DO support the use of copper rings. They compress to seal, take up very irregularities in the mating surfaces
between head /cylinders, help heat transfer, expand and contract to maintain seal and can be and are used, In some cases, to set the compression ratio.
Michael, it sounds to me like you are headed down the right path. I set my engine compression ratio to 7.5:1 which will allow for either fuel available at most
airports.
Noel, I am not an expert, just experienced in the building of a lot of VW engines. Most for street use, some for racing. I am a very modest person, love my family and friends and hate tooting my own horn. I have 24 years of training by VWMA, starting in 1970, and employed
as a “unit room tech”. I was also elected to the Volkswagen Service Guild in 1974, one of 12 tech inducted that year. I consider myself lucky to have been involved
with VW during the heyday of the air cooled revolution. If I misunderstood, I apologize.

On another note, are there any of the VW type II / IV engines being used in aviation regularly? They have always seemed to be well suited for modification for aircraft
use. In stock form they provide more torque which would reduce the need to “go big or go home”. The one drawback seems to be the drive hub on the crankshaft.
The weight might also play in with the lack of aftermarket parts. Just something to think about.
Frank
ONEX 090

Re: Leaky exhaust valves

Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:59 am

by radfordc

Klimek wrote:
On another note, are there any of the VW type II / IV engines being used in aviation regularly? They have always seemed to be well suited for modification for aircraft
use. In stock form they provide more torque which would reduce the need to “go big or go home”. The one drawback seems to be the drive hub on the crankshaft.
The weight might also play in with the lack of aftermarket parts. Just something to think about.
Frank
ONEX 090

One of the very first customer built Sonexs had a Type 4 VW. It crashed due to prop hub failure. https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Repor … l&IType=LA


Re: Leaky exhaust valves

Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:54 am

by NWade

Corby202 wrote:My GP VW did not use copper head gaskets, I never had any problems.

So I just want to point out that a single data-point does not prove a theory. I am not saying this to be critical of Phil; his experience is perfectly valid for him. But there are people who smoke cigarettes and never develop lung cancer. Their experience doesn’t prove that smoking is safe for your health. :slight_smile:

Frank - Good to know about your VW experience. It sounds like you’ve got far more hands-on time on the engine than I do! My comments were certainly not pointed in your direction in any sharp or negative way. I’m just trying to urge caution and critical thinking.

My main point in all of this is to be careful who you trust (i.e. figure out their credentials before you decide how seriously to take their claims or advice), and to try to thoroughly understand how something works and the whys behind any solution, before you make decisions or deviate from plans. Take a scientific approach when sussing out the “why” part: Is the information current? Are arguments for/against supported with solid evidence? Are they repeated by multiple reliable and experienced sources? How small is the sample size?
Most choices in aircraft design (and engines, too) are a compromise between several factors. If you don’t understand those various competing requirements - or the impacts of a particular method/part - then you could unwittingly put yourself at risk for higher maintenance and/or in-flight failures. If you truly want to have confidence in your aircraft and its systems, you need to be able to point to any part and say “I chose that because of A, B, and C. Even though it means X, Y, and Z; because B is very important to me, and it doesn’t outweigh X.”

Stepping off my soapbox for now,

–Noel
“online” in some form or another since 1985…


Re: Leaky exhaust valves

Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:21 am

by vigilant104

Klimek wrote:On another note, are there any of the VW type II / IV engines being used in aviation regularly? They have always seemed to be well suited for modification for aircraft
use. In stock form they provide more torque which would reduce the need to “go big or go home”. The one drawback seems to be the drive hub on the crankshaft.
The weight might also play in with the lack of aftermarket parts. Just something to think about.
Frank

That lack of aftermarket parts drives up their cost, and that’s another major reason we don’t see many Type IVs. It’'s just a lot more trouble and work to go that route (rather than the Type I), and the Type I gives us all we need if its limits are respected. An important inherent limit is the ability of the head to shed heat. It’s not a downfall or weakness of the VW, just a limit that needs to be understood. Folks have even tried using the “wasserboxers” to allow more heat to be shed, but the results have generally been expensive, leaky, unreliable airplane powerplants.
Good baffling is key to making the Type i work in our planes (just as it is in the automotive VW installation). Luckily for us in the Sonex world, the factory and many builders have been down this road, tried hundreds of things, and have provided a path (including parts and detailed instructions) that works. Sure, this is experimental aviation and people can try new things, but hopefully that won’t result in disparagement of the engine if the results aren’t what they’d hoped.


Re: Leaky exhaust valves

Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:30 pm

by rizzz

Klimek wrote:On another note, are there any of the VW type II / IV engines being used in aviation regularly? They have always seemed to be well suited for modification for aircraft
use. In stock form they provide more torque which would reduce the need to “go big or go home”. The one drawback seems to be the drive hub on the crankshaft.
The weight might also play in with the lack of aftermarket parts. Just something to think about.
Frank
ONEX 090

A good friend of mine owns a Grob 109B motor glider which is powered by a certified 2.5L Type 4 VW conversion which produces about 90hp.
I have flown his aircraft and I really liked the way his engine runs.
Here’s a picture of one:


Re: Leaky exhaust valves

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:00 am

by rizzz

OK, so I just got the heads back. They look like new!

My VW guy told me the machinist said the heads were in good condition, so where the valves & guides, however, the valve seats were “shitty” (that was the highly technical term he used), and they would have been the cause of the leak(s) I was experiencing. He could not tell me how they would have gotten “shitty” after running for only 70 hours or so.
Anyway, the seats have been cut etc. so they seal properly again.

Regarding the copper head gaskets, he is not a fan of them and generally does not use them. He says they are good if you have imperfections but given my heads have been flycut (they took 0.009 off) they should mate perfectly to the cylinders.


Re: Leaky exhaust valves

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:24 pm

by rizzz

Here’s what they look like now:


I’m happy again, can’t wait to put them back on the engine and go flying again, it’s been weeks, I’m starting to show withdraw symptoms…
Unfortunately it won’t be till Monday before I can get back to the airport.


Re: Leaky exhaust valves

Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:57 pm

by rizzz

Yesterday I spent all day at the airport getting the engine back together and I’m happy to report she’s flying again.
I’m was getting good compression on all cylinders, even on a cold engine, so I decided to start her up for some ground testing. She ran like never before so after a few full power runs I put the cowling on and went for a flight.

The only issue I had was a massive AeroCarb burb on my take-off roll just after I opened the throttle. I have experienced burps before when taking off with a hot engine but they were more like little hesitations, this one was a huge burp, the aircraft really stopped pulling for a brief moment.

Anyway, everything was smooth after that hiccup and the aircraft climbed great, I noticed a significant improvement in power output so I guess the problem I was having must have slowly started creeping up on me over the last few months.


Re: Leaky exhaust valves

Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:19 pm

by mike.smith

rizzz wrote:The only issue I had was a massive AeroCarb burb on my take-off roll just after I opened the throttle. I have experienced burps before when taking off with a hot engine but they were more like little hesitations, this one was a huge burp, the aircraft really stopped pulling for a brief moment.

Too rich, perhaps?


Re: Leaky exhaust valves

Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:35 pm

by rizzz

mike.smith wrote:

rizzz wrote:The only issue I had was a massive AeroCarb burb on my take-off roll just after I opened the throttle. I have experienced burps before when taking off with a hot engine but they were more like little hesitations, this one was a huge burp, the aircraft really stopped pulling for a brief moment.

Too rich, perhaps?

Not sure.
I am still running way rich, yes, I do realize that now, even after another 1/4 turn towards the lean side. This is probably also the reason why my valve seats got contaminated so badly and eventually pitted.
I am going to go back to do some serious tuning on my AeroInjector, starting with putting the 2.0 needle back in. (I’m currently running the 2.5 needle).


Re: Leaky exhaust valves

Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:50 am

by radfordc

I would think the burp was not due to running rich. It is a sign of a bubble in the fuel line that interrupts fuel flow at the carb…same as you’ve experienced before. Keeping the fuel cool in the lines is the solution to that problem.