Leading edge dimple die
Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:02 pm
by Issak
I am kicking into high gear on my Sonex kit, and having a blast at it! I am currently drilling my wing skins. Looking forward to my leading edge wing skins I know I will need a Sonex dimple die. If anyone has one laying around, I will pay for shipping both ways.
For all the most recent news and pictures of my build y’all can visit my blog isaacshultzsonex.blogger.com
Thanks,
Re: Leading edge dimple die
Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 1:29 pm
by Issak
I got one.
Re: Leading edge dimple die
Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:34 pm
by mike20sm
Issak wrote:I am kicking into high gear on my Sonex kit, and having a blast at it! I am currently drilling my wing skins. Looking forward to my leading edge wing skins I know I will need a Sonex dimple die. If anyone has one laying around, I will pay for shipping both ways.
For all the most recent news and pictures of my build y’all can visit my blog isaacshultzsonex.blogger.com
Thanks,
http://isaacshultzsonex.blogspot.com/
Re: Leading edge dimple die
Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:10 pm
by N814W
Any thoughts on the Simple Dimple die vs. the Cleveland version? I seem to recall reading less than ideal feedback on Sonex’s dies.
http://www.cleavelandtool.com/3_32-Clos … UlIve3ytpg
Re: Leading edge dimple die
Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:43 pm
by NWade
N814W wrote:Any thoughts on the Simple Dimple die vs. the Cleveland version? I seem to recall reading less than ideal feedback on Sonex’s dies.
I like all of the Cleaveland Tool products I’ve had over the years of my Sonex build. Having said that, I should point out that no “nail and die” tool will give you perfect dimples (like a rivet squeezer or a C-Frame will)… So its not like the Cleaveland die gives you an amazing result and the Sonex tool is crap; its that the Cleaveland Tool dies give you relatively better results. If you already have a couple of the Sonex dimple-die tools they’re likely to be good enough for you. If you haven’t purchased anything yet, then I’d go with the Cleaveland Tool units myself.
Good luck,
–Noel
Sonex #1339
Re: Leading edge dimple die
Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:31 pm
by N265DF
Just thought I’d mention for new builders who may have missed the age old posts on this. Dimpling does enlarge the hole so best to do so at 3/32 or 7/64. If I recall dimpling at 7/64 will bring the hole to #30. There were some stories long ago of rivets pulling through from dimpling at #30
Darrell Frey
N265DF reserved. For a story on the N number, 265 is the serial #, 65 was my age when purchased plans. DF is my initials
Re: Leading edge dimple die
Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:58 pm
by NWade
N265DF wrote:Just thought I’d mention for new builders who may have missed the age old posts on this. Dimpling does enlarge the hole so best to do so at 3/32 or 7/64. If I recall dimpling at 7/64 will bring the hole to #30. There were some stories long ago of rivets pulling through from dimpling at #30
I can provide clarification on that (partly because I was around 8-9 years ago when lots of discussions were going on about it, and partly because I’ve done my own tests with my all-flush-pulled-rivets Sonex build)…
For the best results with a dimpled rivet, pilot-drill with a #40 bit and then up-drill with a #32 bit. Then deburr, then dimple. Voila! Perfect hole. There are two issues with this method, however:
- Brass clecos (designed for #30 holes) will not fit very well into #32 holes. Don’t be surprised if they’re stiff to get through and retract; and they may slightly elongate the holes in the process (though the hole returns to round once you dimple it).
- If the hole goes through a thick piece of material (some aluminum angle-stock or the spar cap, for example), then you cannot leave the thick material drilled with a #32 hole. After you disassemble the parts, you need to do a final up-drill of the thick item with a #30 bit, and counter-sink as appropriate.
Now, if you are careful and do not over-drill or overly-deburr your holes, a #30 drill bit can be used on skins & ribs prior to dimpling. People have performed tests and found that the resulting assemblies are still reasonably strong. However, you do run the risk of the occasional rivet pulling so far that the stem breaks off proud of the rivet head. The general consensus is that a couple of these spread out across a part are not going to seriously weaken the part. But if you have several rivets exhibit that behavior, your holes are getting too big and you need to drill them out and replace them with up-sized rivets.
Enjoy,
–Noel
Sonex #1339
Re: Leading edge dimple die
Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:09 pm
by phenry
I wrote an artical for the Australian Sonex Owners on the Simple Dimple Die some time ago, below is a link.
https://sonexaus.wikispaces.com/Dimpling
Re: Leading edge dimple die
Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:48 pm
by WaiexN143NM
Hi all,
I’ve mentioned this before, but putting this out there for new folks. Cleveland aircraft tools has a special dimple die ‘dienq’ part number, for the dimpleing . Especially for sonex and panther kits. Drill a #40 hole, you can still use 3/32 clecoes, dimple, ream with a #30 drill for a perfect fit. Check it out.
WaiexN143NM
Michael
Re: Leading edge dimple die
Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:30 am
by DCASonex
For what its worth, I did have problem with Sonex dimple die, but that was 6 years ago and would hope they have changed it by now. Problem was too steep a nose angle (about 80 degrees) into a female die of about 100 degrees which over stretched the material opening the a # 32 (0.116") drilled hole to about 0.140" , which is way too big. Looked at the 3/32" die I got from Avery Tool, which worked fine, and made new 1/8" die set on lathe with similar angles. I used a common 118 degree drill bit to form the concave half of the die and made the nose 115 degrees. Used in holes drilled with #32 bit, and opened to nicely hold 1/8" Clecos and rivets. Still have the drawing for that if anyone wants it. Used with common nail for mandrel but do need to cleanup usual burr under the head before use.
David A.
Re: Leading edge dimple die
Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 4:18 pm
by samiam
No one else has mentioned it, so I’ll throw it out there:
http://www.cleavelandtool.com/Dimple-Di … UrULbZJlaQ
Haven’t used it personally, but my guess is that this would give you the highest quality dimples.
For a lower cost solution, the simple die works fine, but it does take longer.
Re: Leading edge dimple die
Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:18 pm
by rizzz
Here’s my 2 cents,
I used the Sonex dimple dies for all dimpling required and experimented with different drill sizes to get the best result.
In the end I found that drilling at #34, deburring and then dimpling to give me the best results (drilling at #32 before dimpling still leaves too large a hole I found).
You’re left with a perfect dimpled hole which will 99% of the time accept a rivet as-is, only sometimes a little extra enlarging using a #30 bit was required.
Re: Leading edge dimple die
Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 10:56 am
by N814W
Thanks for the heads-up on the DIENQ dimple dies gents - much appreciated! On the Cleveland “simple dimple dies”, should one go with the 3/32" dies and dimple from #40 pilot drilled holes and then drill to final size, or get the 1/8" dies and dimple to final size from a larger? hole as described by Mike above?
Re: Leading edge dimple die
Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:17 am
by NWade
N814W wrote:Thanks for the heads-up on the DIENQ dimple dies gents - much appreciated! On the Cleveland “simple dimple dies”, should one go with the 3/32" dies and dimple from #40 pilot drilled holes and then drill to final size, or get the 1/8" dies and dimple to final size from a larger? hole as described by Mike above?
Personally, I think dimpling should be the last step in the process - and its certainly how I made thousands of dimples on my all-flush-pulled-rivet Sonex.
The reason for this? Burrs. If you drill after you dimple, you are going to leave a burr. It may be a small one, but its there. And once you dimple a hole, your standard deburring tools will not fit into the angled/dimpled area to properly deburr both sides of the hole.
If you updrill and deburr first, then you can perform the dimpling operation and the result is a very nice smooth dimpled hole that’s ready for a fastener.
Good luck,
–Noel
Sonex #1339
Re: Leading edge dimple die
Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 1:41 pm
by jowens
I flush riveted my wings minus the main spar and hinges.
I upsized the holes with a #33 bit after disassembly then
used the sonex simple dimple with a standard head nail (versus a finish nail). A #33 hole was an intentional tight fit for the nail and slowed down the process. I had to frequently file the teeth marks off the nail. I really like Jeff Shultz’s idea of using two underside dimples to dimple two locations before resetting the dimple locations. The ugly part of the job was to reduce or eliminate the deformation around the dimple on the polished skin. To do this I place a piece of steel on the back side of the skin dimple and firmly pressed my thumbs down around the dimple. My quality check was to move my nose reflection over the dimple and if the reflection didn’t deform too much I called it good. I suggest to polish before you dimple.
Re: Leading edge dimple die
Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:08 pm
by DCASonex
rizzz wrote:Here’s my 2 cents,
I used the Sonex dimple dies for all dimpling required and experimented with different drill sizes to get the best result.
In the end I found that drilling at #34, deburring and then dimpling to give me the best results (drilling at #32 before dimpling still leaves too large a hole I found).
You’re left with a perfect dimpled hole which will 99% of the time accept a rivet as-is, only sometimes a little extra enlarging using a #30 bit was required.
Problem with using a #34 drill is that 1/8" Clecos usually will not fit. That make usual procedure of assembling with 3/2" Clecos and removing and replacing with 1/8" as one moves along before disassembling and dimpling, difficult at best. A proper dimple die that does not over stretch the material and holds a snug hole with a #32 bit solves the problem.
David A.