Instruction in Experimental Aircraft
Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 8:15 pm
by pilotyoung
In FAA-2021-0592] the FAA has announced a new policy regard instruction in experimental aircraft. Basically it says for an instructor to be compensated for the instruction in an experimental aircraft (not the use of the aircraft) both the CFI and the owner must have a LODA. There is a new electronic process to obtain a LODA.
This is pure stupidity!
I think every owner of an experimental aircraft should immediately apply for a LODA using the new procedure. Every CFI who gives instruction in experimental aircraft needs to apply for a LODA also.
Since I am both an owner and a CFI, I am applying for two.
The FAA does not have the people or time to perform the important tasks much less to create this mountain of paperwork that will accomplish nothing.
Re: Instruction in Experimental Aircraft
Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 8:52 pm
by pilotyoung
To follow up my last post I just submitted two e-mails to 9-AVS-AFG-LODA@faa.gov applying for LODA’s. One was for an owner and the second one was as a CFI to give instruction in experimental aircraft.
I strongly encourage every owner of a Sonex aircraft to submit an application for a LODA this weekend.
My e-mails have not been returned.
Re: Instruction in Experimental Aircraft
Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 7:14 am
by GraemeSmith
How to apply:
EAA Newsletter wrote:Under the new LODA system, applicants can send an email to 9-AVS-AFG-LODA@faa.gov with their name, address, email address, pilot certificate number, flight instructor number (if applying as a CFI), aircraft registration number (if applying as an owner), aircraft make and model, and aircraft home base (if applying as an owner). The request will then flow to the local FSDO, who will issue the LODA. Both instructors and those receiving training will require a LODA. For aircraft owned by flying clubs, ownership groups, and other shared ownership models, the entity owning the aircraft may hold the LODA rather than each individual member. Either the owner/operator of the aircraft or the instructor can have the LODA, as long as one person in the cockpit has one. LODAs issued under this system will not allow rental of the aircraft to the general public. Those LODAs, issued for transition training and other targeted operations, will continue to be issued per the guidance in FAA Order 8900.1.
Note the contradiction between:
“Both instructors and those receiving training will require a LODA”
and
“Either the owner/operator of the aircraft or the instructor can have the LODA, as long as one person in the cockpit has one”.
Re: Instruction in Experimental Aircraft
Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 8:31 am
by Sonex1517
I submitted my request last evening.
This is a terrible, horrible decision by the FAA and will decrease safety.
Re: Instruction in Experimental Aircraft
Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 8:46 am
by GraemeSmith
Sonex1517 wrote:I submitted my request last evening.
This is a terrible, horrible decision by the FAA and will decrease safety.
I agree - though I think they are “hoist on their own petard” and after “winning” a court case against an operator who was “possibly” bending the rules to suit themselves - they then opened a can of worms that didn’t need opening.
Talking to friendly and safety oriented inspectors at my local FSDO - they are somewhat horrified by the actions of the FSDO that took Warbirds to court without checking in with National… They don’t want this anymore than we do.
If you read the full text of the policy:
“https://www.eaa.org/~/media/1091C7E251904915BBF431FC3EB9B628.ashx”
the LODA’s can be issued by email AND the FAA consider this interim pending a regulation rewrite.
–
Not that it makes it any better in the meantime.
Re: Instruction in Experimental Aircraft
Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 9:06 am
by Jlogan1
I just applied also. lets see how this goes…
Re: Instruction in Experimental Aircraft
Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 9:59 am
by pilotyoung
Graeme,
Note the contradiction between:
“Both instructors and those receiving training will require a LODA”
and
“Either the owner/operator of the aircraft or the instructor can have the LODA, as long as one person in the cockpit has one”.
The quoted language is from Graeme’s post.
I went back to the actual FAA Notice. I thought this was from the Notice but it is from the EAA comments on the Notice. I agree this entire thing is confusing but when I originally read the quoted language, I took it to apply to aircraft owned by flying clubs and not aircraft owned by individuals. Time will tell what the FAA really means.
This Notice has really created a mess that the experimental community will have to sort out.
Re: Instruction in Experimental Aircraft
Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 12:49 pm
by Rynoth
Applied for my LODA. This doesn’t seem like a big deal (other than the interim period of confusion) if the LODA is easy/quick enough to get, but time will tell on that.
Here is a link to the actual (officially not yet published) FAA document: https://public-inspection.federalregist … -14765.pdf
Here is the format I used for the email application I sent, feel free to copy/paste and use it. Some fields may not apply, for example if you’re not a flight instructor and just want to receive training in your aircraft or someone else’s aircraft.
SUBJECT: Experimental Aircraft instruction LODA Application
I would like to apply for a LODA in order to provide transition/familiarity training in my Experimental Aircraft. (change this wording to suit your needs)
Name:
Address:
E-mail address:
Pilot Certificate Number:
Flight instructor certificate number:
Aircraft Registration Number:
Aircraft make/model in which you will receive or provide instruction:
Aircraft home base airport:
Re: Instruction in Experimental Aircraft
Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 10:58 am
by Sonex1517
Just a quick note folks.
I received my LODA this morning from the FSDO. I don’t think it was even a week since submitting the request.
I don’t envy the FSDO’s right now.
Re: Instruction in Experimental Aircraft
Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 2:04 pm
by Fastcapy
Holy crap Robbie. I can’t believe it was that quick!
Re: Instruction in Experimental Aircraft
Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 3:45 pm
by GordonTurner
I got mine last night as well. Via email.
Gordon
Re: Instruction in Experimental Aircraft
Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 5:26 pm
by Sonex1517
Fastcapy wrote:Holy crap Robbie. I can’t believe it was that quick!
Yeah, I was pleasantly surprised! I have to say that every interaction I have had with the Greater Chicago FSDO (formerly DuPage FSDO) has been excellent.
The LODA was another example of that.
Re: Instruction in Experimental Aircraft
Posted: Thu Jul 15, 2021 10:18 am
by Sonerai13
I got mine yesterday, from MKE FSDO. Also, EAA got one that covers all the airplanes in the EAA Employee Flying Club fleet. Seems like the process is working very well. That might be a first for the FAA!
Re: Instruction in Experimental Aircraft
Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 8:07 am
by DCASonex
Glad you got your LODA, but any instructor may also need one issued specifically for your plane. Not liking the looks of this:
https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all … dium=email
David A.
Re: Instruction in Experimental Aircraft
Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 8:30 am
by DCASonex
Does A CFI giving a biannual flight review in an owners experimental count as instruction requiring a LODA ?
David A.
Re: Instruction in Experimental Aircraft
Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 10:24 am
by Rynoth
DCASonex wrote:Does A CFI giving a biannual flight review in an owners experimental count as instruction requiring a LODA ?
David A.
Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think that the LODA is actually required for instruction per se. It’s required for basically any scenario where compensation is involved, including compensated instruction. I.E. the biannual can be performed without a LODA if there’s no compensation.
Re: Instruction in Experimental Aircraft
Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 10:31 am
by Fastcapy
The FAA has already started enforcement actions against instructors doing “free” instruction.
From AOPA:
“FAA prosecutors quoted FAA Advisory Circular 61-142, “defining ‘compensation’ as the receipt of anything of value that is contingent on the pilot operating the aircraft… [it] does not require a profit, profit motive, or actual payment of funds. … accumulation of flight time and goodwill in the form of expected future economic benefits can be considered compensation. Furthermore, the pilot does not have to be the party receiving the compensation; compensation occurs even if a third party receives a benefit as a result of the flight.”
The FAA alleged volunteer instructors received compensation by “accumulating flight time” and “generating goodwill.” In other words, the FAA believes giving away your time and talent equates to compensation.”
Re: Instruction in Experimental Aircraft
Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 3:39 pm
by Sonerai13
DCASonex wrote:Glad you got your LODA, but any instructor may also need one issued specifically for your plane. Not liking the looks of this:
AOPA is incorrect, which doesn’t surprise me given the fact that they are often incorrect when it comes to experimental aircraft issues. If the aircraft has a LODA, the instructor doesn’t need one. If the instructor has one, the aircraft doesn’t need one.
Re: Instruction in Experimental Aircraft
Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 3:39 pm
by Sonerai13
DCASonex wrote:Does A CFI giving a biannual flight review in an owners experimental count as instruction requiring a LODA ?
Yes.
Re: Instruction in Experimental Aircraft
Posted: Fri Jul 16, 2021 3:47 pm
by Sonerai13
Fastcapy wrote:“FAA prosecutors quoted FAA Advisory Circular 61-142, “defining ‘compensation’ as the receipt of anything of value that is contingent on the pilot operating the aircraft… [it] does not require a profit, profit motive, or actual payment of funds. … accumulation of flight time and goodwill in the form of expected future economic benefits can be considered compensation. Furthermore, the pilot does not have to be the party receiving the compensation; compensation occurs even if a third party receives a benefit as a result of the flight.”
The FAA alleged volunteer instructors received compensation by “accumulating flight time” and “generating goodwill.” In other words, the FAA believes giving away your time and talent equates to compensation.”
This gets interesting. I bolded the words above so as to point out the word “CAN”. They said “can”, not “will”. The FAA does not ALWAYS consider flight time as compensation. My own situation is a good example. I have no want or need for any further ratings, and I have more than enough time to meet any insurance requirements I’m likely to come across, so logging more flight time in my case would not be “goodwill in the form of expected future benefits”. The FAA in my situation would likely not consider any logged flight time as compensation. Having said that, I go the LODA anyway. Why not? it was free, and only cost me 5 minutes to put together the email. Done deal! It would be stupid not to.
Re: Instruction in Experimental Aircraft
Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2021 5:43 pm
by racaldwell
Yes, the FAA is reacting fast on this one. Mine took 2 days. And I learned something. They only issue them for the aircraft you own. I asked for my Xenos which I am still building, my RV-6 which I have been flying for 21 yrs, and the Steen Skybolt that I have been flying with an instructor for insurance requirements. I have 2 more hrs. to go with an instructor and then I will be one of the two pilots for Steen’s Yellowbird. The FAA only included the RV-6 & Xenos on my LODA. No mention of the Skybolt.
But since I am not paying anything for the Skybolt instruction, I don’t think I needed one anyway for it.
So if you want to scratch that biplane itch, come on down to MLB and I’ll take you flying.
Rick Caldwell
Xenos 0057
Re: Instruction in Experimental Aircraft
Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:13 am
by GraemeSmith
Rick,
AOPA just carried an article about the FAA prosecuting instructors who were not charging. The flight time being considered compensation for the CFI.
https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/aop … l-aircraft
Careful about your Skybolt situation.
Re: Instruction in Experimental Aircraft
Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2021 10:33 am
by pilotyoung
I have been highly critical of the FAA on this one. I do have to commend the FAA for issuing LODA’s quickly. I would have bet good money that no one would see a LODA for months, and people started getting them in a few days. I got mine in less than a week. But I also have to say that while they have issued a lot of paperwork, it did not accomplish anything. It was wasted effort that could have gone into some constructive activity that would have increased safety.
But this position of not charging and it is still considered as receiving compensation to wrong. I am 73 years old, I am an ATP, 3 type ratings, CFI, CFII, CFMEI, CFIG, have all the ratings I am ever going to get, about 10,000 hours. I dont need any additional hours. The only way I can see me getting another rating is if I win the lottery big and decide I want to fly an helicopter. In other words, I would have money to just waste.
So when I decide to help out a friend and do his flight review just because he is a friend, I can’t see where that is really compensation. I guess the FAA does not understand friendship.
Re: Instruction in Experimental Aircraft
Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:27 pm
by Scott Todd
I applied for a LODA to teach in my Kitfox and for a LODA to provide instruction in other owners airplanes. We’ll see what happens.
My wife, a pilot and Aerospace Engineer, points out, or rather asks, how do they determine instruction is given? By all their descriptions about ‘free’ instruction and what counts as compensation, how does an instructor even get in an airplane? If I go for a ride with a buddy, is he getting instruction? Being an instructor, the pilot could interpret a facial expression as concern or advice on something he is doing. Instruction? Does that count? Without saying a word, or signing a logbook, he could still gain something from me just being in his airplane. Instruction? What if he asks me a question after the flight? Does that mean instruction was given?
This is SO messed up…
Re: Instruction in Experimental Aircraft
Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:24 am
by Fastcapy
Scott Todd wrote:I applied for a LODA to teach in my Kitfox and for a LODA to provide instruction in other owners airplanes. We’ll see what happens.
My wife, a pilot and Aerospace Engineer, points out, or rather asks, how do they determine instruction is given? By all their descriptions about ‘free’ instruction and what counts as compensation, how does an instructor even get in an airplane? If I go for a ride with a buddy, is he getting instruction? Being an instructor, the pilot could interpret a facial expression as concern or advice on something he is doing. Instruction? Does that count? Without saying a word, or signing a logbook, he could still gain something from me just being in his airplane. Instruction? What if he asks me a question after the flight? Does that mean instruction was given?
This is SO messed up…
Yeah, the entire thing is crazy overreach.
A good friend in the FAA (FAAST rep) told me that there is work going on in congress to get a bill to “fix” this mess.
Re: Instruction in Experimental Aircraft
Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:32 am
by Fastcapy
LODA Update:
I applied for a LODA for my Sonex, and another for instructing. (The instructing one was for multiple aircraft). I sent them in on Friday the 16th.
I got an email yesterday (22nd) with the signed LODA’s for both.
Interesting thing is they came from a different FSDO…
It is just stupid to me that they are basically on a shall issue status with these so it is really nothing more than just additional time and paperwork. Nothing more.
Re: Instruction in Experimental Aircraft
Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:27 am
by Scott Todd
I received LODA’s to instruct in my Kitfox and other experimental aircraft which I’m qualified to teach in. The wording is such that I can charge a fair market price for the instruction but I can’t charge anything for the use of my airplane.
While the whole thing seems a bit messed up, I have to commend the FSDO reps for getting right on this. So its basically back to normal for me and others that send in the paperwork but I see how it controls the ‘rides’ being counted as instruction in Warbirds and such.
People receive LODA’s for experimental airplanes so they can charge for using them for things like transition training. Now the Warbird community will have to do something similar.
Re: Instruction in Experimental Aircraft
Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 11:14 am
by GraemeSmith
Fastcapy wrote:Interesting thing is they came from a different FSDO…
Asking my FSDO yesterday were my LODA was…
The work is being teamed out around the FSDO’s on the basis of the number of available Inspectors to do the work - not on a geographical basis.
Re: Instruction in Experimental Aircraft
Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 5:33 pm
by Scott Todd
I live in AZ but mine were signed by someone in Florida. It took exactly a week. They sent me two back. One so the Kitfox can be used for instruction and one so I can provide instruction in other experimental airplanes. I guess, technically, the one authorizing me to give instruction in any Experimental airplane would cover me in my Kitfox. But since I got a specific one naming the Kitfox, someone else could use it to give instruction as long as they were not charging for the airplane.
At first I was a bit miffed at the FAA for this whole thing, but I must say, I’m impressed with their quick response. After seeing how it’s all playing out and reading the exact LODA wording, I kind of get it. They are looking after us EAB guys but the Warbird folks may struggle more.
Re: Instruction in Experimental Aircraft
Posted: Thu Jul 29, 2021 8:33 pm
by Sonex1517
Spotted this on Facebook….
Re: Instruction in Experimental Aircraft
by GraemeSmith » Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:37 pm
And my LODA just showed up. My local FSDO is Boston. The LODA came from Albuquerque! 