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Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2016 12:30 pm
by lgsievila
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Re: Oil Leaks
Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 1:57 am
by mike.smith
I’ve taken that bolt out at least a dozen times since I built the engine and I’ve never had a leak. I’m not sure the design is necessarily the issue. But a 2-piece bracket certainly would not be a bad idea.
Re:
Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 10:16 am
by lgsievila
Re: Oil Leaks
Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 3:43 pm
by Sonerai13
lgsievila wrote:That you have to take the brace off every time you have to torque head bolts etc, there has to be a better way. I still think the best way would be two attachment points on the back of the accessory plate and eliminate the bottom brace altogether
There’s no reason to take the intake manifold brace off at the bottom of the case just to torque head bolts. In fact, If you make a torque extension out of a 15 mm open end wrench you don’t have to take ANY of the intake manifold apart. But even without the torque extender, you can just pull the intake elbows off without disturbing the manifold itself.
We’ve never had problems with a properly-sealed case leaking just by pulling that bolt out when the engine is cold. If it’s going to leak there, it’s going to leak. Removing and installing that bolt won’t change that.
And where does it say anything in the AeroVee assembly manual about silk thread???
Re: Oil Leaks
Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 6:01 pm
by Sonerai13
There has been some discussion offline about this subject, so rather than answering multiple messages I thought I’d just post my comments here for all to see…
Sonex strongly recommends that builders assemble the engine strictly in accordance with the AeroVee Assembly Manual. Any deviation from that makes it hard to diagnose problems that may be introduced by individual builders doing things different ways. Once a builder deviates from the manual in one place, it becomes easier to deviate in other places. Sort of like that snowball rolling down the hill. At any rate, Sonex cannot and does not “approve” anything that is not detailed in the manual. Local “experts” may have a “better idea”, but if it’s not in the manual, you’re on your own.
Regarding the case half bolts: There is NO specific torquing sequence for the perimeter bolts. Only the 6 large main bearing nuts have a toque sequence. The builder is free to tighten the case perimeter nuts and bolts in any pattern he or she wishes.
Regarding my comment on a “torque extender” for torquing cylinder heads. As many of you know, when checking torque on the AeroVee heads, you have to remove the rocker arm shaft. This is fine since you are no doubt going to adjust the valve clearance anyway. But two of the nuts on the top of the head are hidden by the intake elbow. Common practice is to remove the intake elbow to get at those two nuts. This introduces a possible issue with induction system leaks if you don’t get the elbows resealed to the heads properly.
Why mess with something if you don’t have to! Rather make yourself a toque extender out of a spare 15 mm open end wrench. You’ll need the wrench, a spare socket that fits your 3/8 drive torque wrench, and a welder. (The socket can be any size, but something that is about the same width as the wrench works very well.) Measure 4 inches from the center of the wrench’s open end and mark the handle of the wrench. Then weld the socket on the wrench so that the center of the 3/8 drive is right over the 4" mark. You now have a 4" extender for your torque wrench. Now all you have to do is calculate the extra leverage of the 4" extension and set your torque wrench accordingly. You’ll need to know the length of the handle of your torque wrench in order to do the calculation.
Let’s say your torque wrench is 12 inches long from the center of the square drive to the center of the handle. With the 4" extension installed straight out you’ll now have an effective length of 16 inches. The formula is as follows: Torque wrench setting (M1) equals desired torque (M2) multiplied by the basic length of the wrench (L1) divided by the extended length of the wrench (L2). So the formula is M1 = M2xL1/L2.
Plugging our numbers in, the formula looks like this M1 = 18x12/16. 12/16 = .75. 18x.75 is 13.5. So you would set your torque wrench at 13.5 lb-ft in order to achieve 18 lb-ft on the nut. Now you can slide your extension down between the intake elbow and the head and torque those two nuts without having to pull the elbow off.
Now, if you put the extension at a 90 degree angle to the torque wrench, you haven’t actually extended the length so you can leave the setting at 18 lb-ft. But I’ve always found that to be awkward, so I just use the extension straight and change the wrench setting. Either way, it saves messing with the induction system, which is a good thing in my book.
Now that you’ve endured all that, you can just go to http://www.rv7.us/a_u-torquewrenchsetting.htm and plug in the numbers and you’ll get the answer!
Hope this helps!!
Re: Oil Leaks
Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 6:19 pm
by Onex107
Why go to all that trouble. If you put a 1/2 inch adaptor on your torque wrench and use the open end/box end wrench at 90 degrees, you can torque those nuts behind the intake manifold without all the calculations.
Re: Oil Leaks
Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 7:02 pm
by rizzz
You don’t need to make a torque wrench extender from scratch, you can buy one, this is the one I have:
http://www.armstrongtools.com/armstrong … -15mm.html
Be aware my intake is slightly different from the AeroVee and it allows the 12 point adapter, you can get crows-foot adapters as well if that works better on the AeroVee intake.
Also, here’s an online calculator:
http://www.workshopaddict.com/tools/torque.html
Be aware! when using a torque wrench normally it does not matter where you hold it, it always “clicks” at the same torque regardless where you hold it, when using an extension, it does matter as you can see in the drawing in the link above.
Here’s another link with a bit more explanation, and this one shows whay happens if you have the extension at an angle, and yes, at a 90 degree angle the value should be the same as if you don’t have an extension, however I did not find it easy to use the torque wrench that way:
http://manuals.deere.com/omview/OMAR283 … AN07_1.htm
Re: Oil Leaks
Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 9:25 pm
by Sonerai13
rizzz wrote:You don’t need to make a torque wrench extender from scratch, you can buy one, this is the one I have:
http://www.armstrongtools.com/armstrong … -15mm.html
That one is too short to do the head nuts behind the intake elbow on the AeroVee. You need a bare minimum of a 3 inch extension, and 4 inches is better yet.
rizzz wrote:Be aware my intake is slightly different from the AeroVee and it allows the 12 point adapter, you can get crows-foot adapters as well if that works better on the AeroVee intake.
Crow’s foot won’t work on the AeroVee either. Again, too short.
[quote=“rizzz”]Also, here’s an online calculator:
http://www.workshopaddict.com/tools/torque.html[/quote}
Yep, that’ one is fancier than the one I posted, but it works just as well.
Re: Oil Leaks
Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 9:42 pm
by mike.smith
lgsievila wrote:I get your implication Mike but I am pretty sure I put it together correctly.
I didn’t mean to imply anything. It’s just worth knowing that not everyone has an issue with that bolt. I’ve never had a case leak. A rear seal leak and a leak from push rod tube bases (assembly or alignment errors), but never from the case. I put it together strictly per the AV assembly manual, if that means anything.
re; tail feather rigging
Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 3:55 pm
by aferddaberts
I have gotten to the point of rigging my ruddervators and determined that the slots as plans call for, do not allow the pushrods to clear fuselage skin. They are pretty darn close, but no cigar. So I am enlarging the slots ( little bit at a time) so the push rods do not rub. Is this par for the course ? Or have I screwed up somewhere many pages back ? Thanks for your advice. I could ask Tech Support, but I usually get a non-answer from them.
AL Roberts W0209
Re: Oil Leaks
Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:33 am
by lgsievila
Let’s say your torque wrench is 12 inches long from the center of the square drive to the center of the handle.
Been around a long time but have never seen a torque wrench that looks anything like that. Doesn’t seem like something with those dimensions would be very easy to work with. Obviously a typo but Mr Norris never answered my question off line-“What is wrong with using silk thread on case halves?” Easy answer to say it isn’t in the manual. There are numerous things that aren’t in the manual that should be. Just one example is that there is no mention of how to properly install circlips on wrist pins. If you looked at the package the replacement clips came in there is a little instruction sheet saying that if you don’ put the sharp edge outward, the clips can work themselves out. After having several instances of that happening, one could reasonably think that a note to the manual could be added to that effect. And if orientation of circlips wasn’t spelled in the manual to begin with(which it wasn’t), how many people were there that didn’t know there was a right way to install them got it wrong? Fifty/fifty chance on 8 clips-not good odds when you are talking about aircraft engines.
I never once said it was Sonex’s fault I got a bad case-I only pointed out my problems to help others look closely at certain things I encountered. The lack of quality control lies with the foundry and shop that did the machining. I never once said the flawed crankshaft I got was Sonex’s fault-I sent an email to Kerry to tell him what I found and he said and I quote, “good catch”. I tried to share what I found to help others but only found that Sonex does not accept constructive criticism of any sort.
Fact is I never had a case leak in that location until I removed the bolt that holds the brace for the intake. I have attached a link to a video I posted 3 years ago that demonstrates just a little of the care I took assembling my AeroVee. There are many other youtube videos that I posted to demonstrate how I did some things during my build-not saying they were right but they worked for me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVdycOvy84g
Loren Sievila
Onex 33
In the process of removing AeroVee and installing 2200CC Camit.
Re: Oil Leaks
Posted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 1:09 pm
by gammaxy
I think he’s just describing a torque wrench with a 12" long handle, but it might have sounded a little awkward since for the purpose of the calculation it’s helpful to know exactly what measurements to use.
The silk thread seems like something with no satisfying answer. People seem to build engines with and without it in engines that traditionally are built either way. It’s an interesting data point that you used it and ended up with a leak and others haven’t. But I’m sure plenty of people didn’t use it and ended up with leaks. I haven’t noticed any leak at that bolt, but have only removed it twice. I’ll probably pay more attention to that area in the future. I imagine diagnosing a leak at that bolt is tricky, since oil can end up there from a lot of other potential leak points on the back and bottom of the engine.
I don’t think Sonex agrees that the problem with the Nikasil circlips was due to installation direction, but rather them being too small. Frankly, if it is true that a slightly rounded edge on a circlip is all that it takes for it to work out of the groove, I wouldn’t want to use them anyway. I’d love to see someone who has conclusive evidence that it actually matters. That being said, had I received those circlips and saw those instructions, I would install them as you describe, but wouldn’t feel like I was playing engine roulette if I forgot–certainly not 50/50 per clip.
One detail that I feel like is missing from the manual is how long to stretch the pushrod tubes. I use the book they recommend, “How To Rebuild Your Aircooled Volkswagen Engine” for this number and probably a handful of other details (plus I’ve read it cover to cover a couple times before I worked on my engine). I’ve never had a leaky tube and have had them on and off several times, but I always use the length specified in the book. I wonder if the length should be adjusted for things like compression ratio?
Re: Oil Leaks
Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2016 10:57 am
by Onex107
Maybe the problem is the silk thread?
Re: Oil Leaks
Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2016 2:40 pm
by SonexEZ
Dose anyone know where i could get the oil pump gasket , i dont see it on sonex and i dont want to wait 10 days to get it , has anyone match it to a VW or porsche engine and got it a auto parts store ,
Re: Oil Leaks
Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2016 7:38 pm
by kmacht
Not sure about local but socalautoparts has it for 89 cents with free shipping. Item # 111115111B. Probably won’t be any quicker than sonex though. One thing to keep in mind is that there are actually two gaskets. The one above goes between the pump and the case. There is another one that looks similar but thicker that goes between the pump and the pump cover. Sonex doesn’t use that one and instead uses form a gasket sealant in its place.
Keith
#554
Re: Oil Leaks
Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 9:57 am
by Klimek
sonexEZ,
There are 2 gaskets. one, pump to case (block) this the THICKER of the two. The second is between the pump body and the cover. This is the thinner of the 2 and
has 4 holes around the perimeter, one between each mounting hole area. It is important the gaskets do not get mixed. The small holes are used to return oil from the high pressure side of the pump to the low side via the small groove in the face of the pump instead of allowing it so leak out between the cover and body. Secondly the reason it is thin is to keep oil pump gear end play to a minimum. Excessive end play reduces the oil pressure produced by the pump. Lastly be very sparing on the use of sealer on the outer gasket/pump body/cover. Coat the perimeter of the housing only. Do not apply sealer in the area between the groove and the gear cavities. This groove is used to transfer oil back to the low side pressure side of the pump. Use sealer on the pump to case gasket as needed, just don’t get too sloppy.
Lastly the gaskets are available through any VW parts supplier, EMPI, Bug Pack, etc. Buy good quality, German if you can. Sonex is the best place to buy. They support you, you support them. It’s a good deal for everyone concerned.
Frank
ONEX 090
67 hours
Back home Installing SONEX hyd. disc brakes
Prepping for paint
Making small ergonomic changes in cockpit found to be needed after 67 hours of flying / tuning / having fun
Replacing the windshield (changing snap vents modifying fuel cap access)
Spring has Sprung! Get out and FLY!
Re: oil leaks
Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 1:58 pm
by SonexEZ
I need some help here i replaced the oil pump due to not being able to stop a oil leak at the pump , now that i have more oil presure i have a leak at the prop hub , , i could put the front oil cover gasket in to try and reduce the presure , manual says not to use a gasket only gasket sealer , if i have to pull this engine out to fix the hub leak i give up on this aerovee engine
Re: Oil Leaks
Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 3:17 pm
by gammaxy
How big of a leak is it? It’s not a perfect seal, but I don’t think I’d be surprised to see some dampness even though mine has always been dry. My understanding is it can leak if you have too much oil, but my intuition is it would have to be ridiculously overfilled. Is your case breather working correctly? I can’t remember how far you disassembled your engine. Did you happen to notice if the oil slinger is installed correctly on the crankshaft?
How much more oil pressure do you have now? I doubt your problem is caused by extra pressure from the pump. Maybe if an oil passage got blocked or something…
Re: oil leaks
Posted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 3:42 pm
by Sonex1517
SonexEZ wrote:I need some help here i replaced the oil pump due to not being able to stop a oil leak at the pump , now that i have more oil presure i have a leak at the prop hub , , i could put the front oil cover gasket in to try and reduce the presure , manual says not to use a gasket only gasket sealer , if i have to pull this engine out to fix the hub leak i give up on this aerovee engine
This has been covered on the forum previously - one idea:
http://sonexbuilders.net/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=1104&hilit=prop+hub&start=110
Doug Raby also posted information about this - I will see if I can find the article
Re: oil leaks
Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 10:55 am
by Klimek
I do not think changing the pump caused the leak at the hub, if replacement was done correctly.
Oil pressure created by the pump is pressurizing the oil galleys, rod, main and cam bearing, etc. It does not pressurize the
crankcase.
I suspect the leak is caused by the vent system not flowing properly. I have been into a ton of VW engines that were worn out with excessive blow by
and had very little if any leak at the crank / hub / pulley end.
Properly set up (bearing and hub, oil slinger) there is very little chance there will be a leak there. It is a very simple set up that works well.
Check the vent system and for excessive blow by. (Rings, pistons, cylinders, etc.)
Don’t give up on the AeroVee…Mine works great.
Frank
ONEX090
installing hydraulic brakes
Getting ready to paint
Re: 1
Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:26 pm
by SonexEZ
maybe i have blow by due to only having 6 hrs on it ? the breather system was removed and was clean ,
Re: 1
Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2016 11:03 pm
by kmwoody
After I rebuilt my Aerovee my oil pump leaked. I tried fixing it with just sealant, but it would not stop leaking. I ended up putting a gasket coated on both sides with a very thin coat of Permatex gray silicon. Didn’t leak after that for 135 hours when I sold it.
Ken W
Sonex 959
CAMit 3300
1
Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2016 8:22 am
by Sonex1517
Link to the post where the prop hub leak is discussed
http://www.sonexbuilders.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1640&p=11818&hilit=Prop+hub+leak#p11818
Robbie Culver
Sonex 1517
Chicagoland
N1517S
Re: Oil Leaks
Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:02 pm
by Kalibr
Onex107 wrote:Why go to all that trouble. If you put a 1/2 inch adaptor on your torque wrench and use the open end/box end wrench at 90 degrees, you can torque those nuts behind the intake manifold without all the calculations.
i can confirm – this works like a charm, at least for me it worked great