Change to Prince Prop
Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:54 pm
by mike.smith
Hi:
I’m considering changing from the fixed pitch Sensenich prop for the AeroVee, to a Prince P Tip. For anyone that has made that switch did you notice any quantifiable difference? Frankly I’m more interested in a little more climb performance than top speed, but I’m interested to hear about any difference you may have noticed, either way.
Thanks,
Re: Change to Prince Prop
Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:09 pm
by RodgerC
Mike…I changed from Sensenich 54x44 to a Prince 54x42 about 5 weeks ago, but at the same time I increased my displacement from 2180 to 2276cc, so I cannot be certain how much of the improvement is due to the Prince prop.
Previously on take off I was seeing 3050 RPM and climb around 450 to 550 fpm. I now achieve (in 32 deg C Australian summer heat) 3150 RPM and 650 fpm climb (1 pob). At my usual cruise RPM of 3200, I’m now achieving between 115 and 122 knots. (Not mph) That’s an extra 5 knots.
In short, I’m very happy with the improvement but as stated, some will likely be due to the increased displacement. I’d recommend the 42" pitch to get you closer to the peak power/torque point on the AeroVee curve.
I haven’t managed to get more than 3350 RPM at WOT, but the “new” engine only has 6 hrs on it so far.
Regards
Rodger
Re: Change to Prince Prop
Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:43 pm
by gammaxy
My experience with the Prince 54x46 is it seems pitched a little too coarse. The highest RPM I get in level flight at full throttle is around 3150-3200 at around 135-140mph. On climb-out, I get around 2800-2850. I imagine an extra 150-200rpm in level flight would also translate to better climb performance, so I’d recommend trying a Prince propeller with a finer pitch than mine. Looks like Rodger’s 54x42 might be a good option.
My belief is that Sensenich knows what they’re doing and build and design great propellers. It’s pretty likely that a Sensenich with a finer pitch would get you the performance you’re looking for if you aren’t already exceeding ~3400rpm at full power cruise. I’m not sure how difficult it is to get Sensenich to modify your propeller or build a slightly different one, so that could make Prince an attractive option.
Re: Change to Prince Prop
Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:52 pm
by RodgerC
Nothing like a photo…119 kts at 3160 RPM and 1960’
Note also the battery condition, thanks to the new Jabiru 12 pole stator
Re: Change to Prince Prop
Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:06 am
by mike.smith
For the first couple of years I had a Sensenich ground adjustable. What a piece of junk! When a prop strike blew it up (yay!) I got the Sonex “standard” Sensenich prop. My climb outs in summer weather are still anemic. If I’m flying at gross, or with an adult passenger I often see 200 to 250 fpm and 2,950 rpm on take off. With trees all around me it can get the pucker factor way up. I have never gotten over 3,250 rpm in level flight with any prop (with the ground adjustable in the finest pitch I never got over 3,050 rpm). Getting anyone at Sensenich to answer inquiries has been fruitless in the past. Loni Prince appears to be a lot more interactive in helping to find the right prop, and I’ve never heard anything but great feedback from Prince Prop owners. I’d also like to have a composite prop again, with leading edge protection. I can’t get that with a Sensenich.
Re: Change to Prince Prop
Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:48 am
by wlarson861
When I had a normally aspirated AeroVee I had a prince prop. When I converted to the turbo I loaned my prop to a friend with a Onex who saw about 100 rpm increase on take off. Lonnie Prince is a big supporter of home built s who still answers the phone at his company. I am changing to a Jabiru engine and put in a web order for a new prop. When I called the secretary to give a credit card number the boss answered the phone. I know it’s a small company but I still like the fact that the boss cares about his customers and isn’t afraid to answer the phone. I had good results with my original prince prop and expect the same with the new engine.
With my Prince prop I had the bottom cowl pin work out and get picked up by the prop and ejected. I could see a few dings in the finish of the prop so I emailed Prince to see if I needed to send the prop in. Within 15 min. of sending the email Lonnie called me on the phone to discuss the matter. NOW THAT’S CUSTOMER SERVICE.
Re: Change to Prince Prop
Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:44 am
by WaiexN143NM
Hi bill, all,
good to see that you arejoining us jab owners. a3300 i asume? we love ours. running a rotec tbi. no facet pump just gravity feed. no gascolater, red cube fuel flow, carb heat box, k & n filter. flying solo really shines, 120 hp is a kick in the pants. with a pax you still get very good performance.
sounds like you had enough of the aerovee and turbo fiasco.
we are running a prince p tip prop. love it and love lonnies service. if i were to do it all over again id get a white prop. we have a black one. on a sunny hot day the black prop gets hot if you handle it. we are running with the sonex jab 3300 baffle kit, and exhaust. maybe someone converting to a b model would have a good deal on an engine mount. check barnstormers too, ive seen them advertized there.
good luck let us know if you have any questions.
WaiexN143NM
Michael
Re: Change to Prince Prop
Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:10 am
by RodgerC
…and they sure are conversation starters at flyins…I now tell people I bought the prop “pre-ground struck”
Re: Change to Prince Prop
Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:14 am
by Area 51%
Mike…and all other boats afloat…just so you know…
Sensenich does make a ground adjustable composite propeller with leading edge protection for the Aerovee. Saw and touched one at the Sebring Light Sport show on Friday.
Re: Change to Prince Prop
Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:37 am
by Brett
Looks like I’m about the last Aerovee turbo flyer 
To boldly go as they say
Re: Change to Prince Prop
Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:43 am
by NWade
Brett wrote:Looks like I’m about the last Aerovee turbo flyer
To boldly go as they say
Fear not! I still intend for my AeroVee Turbo to fly. The recent ground runs may have resulted in an oil-cooler mishap but the engine is almost back together and I’m eagerly watching to see the water-cooling solution that Sonex mentioned on these forums a few weeks ago. I think its badly needed and will resolve the oil-coking/turbine-failure issues.
As for the Prince prop: I’ve only had mine long enough to do a few ground runs but I’ve got no complaints about it so far.
–Noel
Re: Change to Prince Prop
Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:28 pm
by WaiexN143NM
hi all,
Dont forget Prince props special offer on the latest podcast with Lonnie himself. A few years back at osh airventure, at the sonex open house, i remember talking to jeremy about the sensenich grnd adj props. the ones for the aerovee were offered,the ones for the jab motors were developing cracks near the hub, so that was the end of those. not sure what mike smiths , displeasure was with them . maybe get an update on that from him. something that may apply to all grnd adj units. anyone else running a gnd adj unit? thoughts?
WaiexN143NM
Michael
Re: Change to Prince Prop
Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:23 pm
by mike.smith
Area 51% wrote:Mike…and all other boats afloat…just so you know…
Sensenich does make a ground adjustable composite propeller with leading edge protection for the Aerovee. Saw and touched one at the Sebring Light Sport show on Friday.
Yes, and I had one. But the ground adjustable was a piece of junk (I’ll tell all the stories if you really want). I want a fixed pitch composite prop with leading edge protection.
Re: Change to Prince Prop
Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:45 pm
by rizzz
I have to second everybody praising the Lonnie Prince’s props, I have a 54x48 P-Tip on my VW powered Sonex and absolutely love it.
At first I thought the great performance I was getting from my VW engine was mostly related to the fact that I have a slightly higher displacement engine than most (94mm bore x 86mm stroke = 2387cc), now I believe the prop probably plays a huge role as well.
At one stage, some people on this forum were actually questioning my numbers when I published them, so I made a video, here it is again for those who have not seen it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqVj2IJEbHI&t=5s
Watch the airspeed and altimeter closely, note that the numbers are in KT, not MPH.
I start off cruising 120KT at 1750ft, I then push the throttle wide open whilst maintaining 1800ft, the airspeed is approaching 150KT before I pull back the throttle, it was still going up but I got an EGT warning which you can see on my flashing on my E1 as well if you look closely.
You might wonder what climb performance with this prop since it cruises so well, so here’s my first flight video which demonstrates that too:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKGuEdH9Fcs&t=283s
I don’t have a VSI but if you just watch the cockpit video between 3:47 where I start climbing from 30ft, and 4:15 where I reach 530ft, that’s just under 30 seconds to climb 500ft so I’m seeing 1000-1100FPM here.
Of course this is my first flight ever so weight was minimal at the time.
Anyway, in conclusion: Prince props, highly recommended!
Re: Change to Prince Prop
Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:09 pm
by daleandee
Never flown a Prince prop on my airplane (I did on my friends 3300 Sonex) but did talk to Lonnie Prince about one. He’s a fine fellow and very knowledgeable. At the end of the day I stayed with the Sensenich. I won’t go into all the reasons for my decision but Jeff’s testing tells much of the story. Don’t get wrapped up in the pitch numbers for props as different manufacturers do it differently. But comparative results are the key. Jeff notes in this series of tests that the Prince did have a slight higher cruise … but at the same time the Sensenich had a slightly better climb. I’ve always believed, “TANSTAAFL” i.e. “there ain’t no such thing as a free lunch” and while a different prop may have a slight advantage I don’t believe in magic props that cure an under powered or overloaded airplane.
There is a post on this forum where one claims that the efficiency of the Prince prop can be improved by cutting the tips off and the claim is that it has been proven by a few that have done it. I have no idea but again … TANSTAAFL.
Sensenich makes an excellent product and I’m proud to fly behind one. Here is link to Jeff"s comments: http://sonex604.com/prop_comp.html
FWIW,
Dale Williams
N319WF @ 6J2
Myunn - “daughter of Cleanex”
120 HP - 3.0 Corvair
Tail Wheel - Center Stick
Signature Finish 2200 Paint Job
168.7 hours / Status - Flying
Member # 109 - Florida Sonex Association
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VP7UYEqQ-g
Re: Change to Prince Prop
Posted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:36 pm
by fastj22
Those trying to figure out which prop to go with, do yourself a favor and listen to our podcast with Lonny Prince. I’m a Prince man, but I do respect the Sensonich product too. But after listening to the podcast, if you don’t come away with a warm feeling that Prince props has the right customer attitude, I don’t think you will be satisfied with any provider.
Re: Change to Prince Prop
Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:48 am
by jaywa
Support the experiences of others ; Lonnie Prince has provided a very personalised and expert service for our two Revmaster 2300 powered Sonexes here in Western Australia - one a 54 x 48 and the other a 54 x54 Ptip
No experience with other prop manufacturers
Re: Change to Prince Prop
Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:35 am
by Area 51%
Sorry Mike,
I was under the impression your adjustable prop was a laminated unit and the composite prop was a new thing.
Re: Change to Prince Prop
Posted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:03 pm
by mike.smith
OK, so I’ll hijack my own thread. Here’s the story of my Sensenich ground adjustable prop. I wanted to be able to have a climb prop for much of my flying, but also wanted a cruise prop for longer trips like going to OSH (1,000 miles). I talked to Sensenich at OSH many years ago, and they convinced me their composite ground adjustable was the way to go.
There are multiple pitch adjustments. There are round steel dowels that are inserted into the center of the hub. You then turn both blades until they make contact with the dowel. Then you tighten down the allen head bolts and remove the dowel.
- Those allen head bolts stripped all the time. They were awful. If you strip an allen head, down inside the recessed holes in the hub, the only way to get them out is to use something like a Speed Out Screw Extractor. You drill into the stripped allen head, rotate in the threads of the extractor, and HOPE it comes out! I had to do that at least 4 times! So that made adjusting the prop something you never wanted to do. So why have an adjustable prop? Very poor engineering.
- When I first installed the prop I used a medium setting: not coarse, not fine. My static RPMs at full throttle were awful; about 2,500 rpm. So I went to the next-to-last fine pitch. Still only got about 2,650 rpm. I went down to the finest pitch possible, and got about 2,800 rpm. That was the best I ever got on the ground. For 3 years I flew like that, getting a max of about 2,850 on take off, and 2,950 WOT at altitude. I had someone make me a thinner dowel pin on a lathe, to make the prop even finer (finer than the manufacturer allowed), but before I could try that I busted the prop on a prop strike.
It was a beautiful prop, but it didn’t work worth a damn.