CFI Checkout in Tailwheel Sonex
Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:22 pm
by pilotyoung
I am seriously looking at buying a tailwheel Onex. My insurance company insist that before they will insure me, I must get a CFI checkout in a tailwheel Sonex. So after reading about the factory training program on the internet, I called the factory. They said they no longer do training.
Does anyone know of a place to get dual instruction and a CFI checkout in a tailwheel Sonex? I have about 60 hours of tailwheel time and a tailwheel endorsement so all I need is a checkout.
Thanks.
Re: CFI Checkout in Tailwheel Sonex
Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:01 pm
by GraemeSmith
Where are you located?
Re: CFI Checkout in Tailwheel Sonex
Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:08 am
by pilotyoung
Birmingham, AL but I am willing to travel a reasonable distance to get a CFI checkout since I am also a CFI.
Re: CFI Checkout in Tailwheel Sonex
Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:04 am
by GraemeSmith
I’m getting a checkout at the school at KFIT - Fitchburg this weekend.
The CFI has “some” Sonex time - I’ll let you know how it goes and if it is worth travelling.
Re: CFI Checkout in Tailwheel Sonex
Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:34 pm
by pilotyoung
Do they have a tailwheel Sonex there to give dual in?
Re: CFI Checkout in Tailwheel Sonex
Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 2:22 am
by GraemeSmith
Sent you a PM
Re: CFI Checkout in Tailwheel Sonex
Posted: Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:06 pm
by johnnn
This is a serious problem. I am building Onex 0179. One of the reasons I purchased the kit was that there was a very good transitional training program at place at Sonex. They have thrown us under the bus. With their Jet I guess we are small fish to fry. I am not happy with this. John
Re: CFI Checkout in Tailwheel Sonex
Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:07 am
by GraemeSmith
I was able to negotiate with the underwriters a bit. Despite a hull loss prior to buying the Sonex and pretty low tail time.
The hull loss was a certificated aircraft which I put back down on the remaining runway after getting out a short field OK - but then getting rotored downwards in the lee of trees creating a risk of not getting out over the trees at the end. I elected to slip and slam her down rather than risk not getting over the trees. I didn’t quite stop and the prop was stopped by the airport fence. Plane is perfectly repairable (the wrecking yard are) but repair values exceeded insured value. Not reportable to the NTSB - I got some peer review from fellow pilots and CFI’s. Then I wrote up a NASA form.
So yes I was going to be difficult to place - especially moving from Cert to Experimental and with low tail time and a loss.
But I also am active in the WINGS program and use it to take a flight review every year.
–
Two underwriters came back with 10 with a CFI and 10 solo before passengers and almost identical premiums.
I offered to complete the Sonex Training Syllabus and as I did - take a Flight Review. I also gave them a copy of my NASA report with my accident analysis (I’ve nothing to hide there).
Other factors that might have helped - I’m a PPL tail and complex endorsed. Relatively high time overall 1,800hrs over 8 years and 27 types flown - 24 as PIC. But tail time was a low 20 hours. Underwriters came back with 5 and 5. I’m good with that.
–
Now of course I had to shop around quite hard to find a CFI with Sonex time - I found 3 in New England - but a limiting factor was their weight. One CFI was offering time in an RV as “equivalent” to get over the issue of his weight. The one I am flying with - the lightest one - is still 185lbs and with the aircraft stripped down to just us in our T-Shirts, shorts and headsets we only have 1.5 hours of fuel with a 45 min reserve (my personal minimum). But we will get there.
So - the moral of the tale (if there is one) is to try and negotiate with the underwriter. Most simply apply “our usual rules” - but if you can get to talk to the senior underwriter and can persuade them you have a good attitude towards safety - even if things have gone wrong for you in the past - you might be able to improve on what you are offered at first.
And remember the training syllabus offers other aircraft that might be “equivalent” - underwriters may accept that - especially if you can show it is in the Sonex Syllabus:
Aircraft that may be appropriate for this training may include, but are not limited to:
- Grumman AA-1 Yankee, AA-5 Cheetah/Tiger
- Van’s RV series of aircraft, including the RV-12, RV-6/6a and RV-7/7a
- Zenith 601/650 series of aircraft
- Many low wing S-LSA aircraft may also qualify for this purpose
YMMV
Re: CFI Checkout in Tailwheel Sonex
Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:14 am
by XenosN42
Hi Graeme,
Could you let us know what you were quoted for liability and hull?
Re: CFI Checkout in Tailwheel Sonex
Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:02 pm
by jerryhain
I have a YX Taildragger in Tucson that I can do some checkouts in before I sell it.
Re: CFI Checkout in Tailwheel Sonex
Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 9:11 am
by GraemeSmith
XenosN42 wrote:Hi Graeme,
Could you let us know what you were quoted for liability and hull?
That’s probably a whole new thread because of the variables. Especially the amount you want to insure the hull for and whether or not it is “tie down”, “tie down and taxi” or “all motion”. Geography also plays a part. If you live in hurricane or tornado alley. It’s going to be worse. So I will exclude that in the discussion.
Liability to $1,000,000 ($100,000 per person) and $5,000 medical payments was about $1,700. “Smooth” was not available ($1,000,000 per person). Seems that smooth is getting harder to place even in certificated.
EAA / Falcon - couldn’t find an underwriter - but I honestly didn’t feel they tried very hard.
AVEMCO (usually $$$$$$$$) were actually OK - but their sublimits are much worse than who I actually got.
Robbie Culver put me onto Victoria at Air-Pros. She understood what a Sonex is, did the leg work and got me covered. Victoria Neuville - vneuville@air-pros.com
Important to remember - there are really only 12 aviation UNDERWRITERS out there. The more BROKERS you go to trying to get a better deal - the more they shop the SAME UNDERWRITERS on your behalf. The Underwriters quickly get annoyed with this. And their pricing doesn’t get any better.
In the past I’ve asked
AOPA
EAA
and
one other broker recommended by a type club and left it at that.
Robbie recommended Victoria - I was hard to place - she placed me - I’ll go with that!
Dio
Re: CFI Checkout in Tailwheel Sonex
Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:18 pm
by XenosN42
Thanks Graeme,
I take your point about how difficult it is to compare hull coverage. There are so many variables. I don’t carry hull coverage on my OneX. I didn’t think the risk was worth the cost. So I guess I could say I self insure the hull.
I got my liability insurace through Falcon (assoc. with the EAA). My coverage:
Insured Value: Liability Only
Liability Limit: $1,000,000 Combined Single Limit Subject Excluding Passenger
Medical Payments: $10,000 Each Person (Including Crew)
I pay $351 per year. At my last renewal I was able to claim somewhere over 300 hours (I think) in Sonex tailwheel aircraft (Xenos & OneX).
Re: CFI Checkout in Tailwheel Sonex
Posted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:04 pm
by GraemeSmith
4.0 on the Hobbs today - flying up and back to KFIT for a lesson. The CFI signed me off today as having completed the Sonex transition syllabus to his satisfaction. Trouble is I need 1.4 more hours to satisfy the insurers before carrying passengers. So we will try and do some interesting stuff on Thu - like improbable turns and almost incipient spins.
I looped my way home at 100 knots or so at the end of the lesson. Even hit my own wake on a few!