Camguard
Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2020 10:37 am
by GraemeSmith
Anyone running Camguard in the Valvoline VR1 20/50 oil?
As winter makes it harder to fly consistently and maintain oil films - I’d like to improve my chances while sitting. I KNOW it works well in Mineral Oil base stock in Aviation oils. But not sure if the chemistry in the Camguard will conflict with the chemistry in the Valvoline…
Re: Camguard
Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2020 10:52 pm
by Rynoth
Interesting.. I wasn’t aware of this product. I do wonder if it could possibly help with my turbo getting sticky after a few weeks on the ground.
Re: Camguard
Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2020 1:51 am
by pilotyoung
They make Camguard for auto engines and small engines. You might try the Camguard for auto engines.
Re: Camguard
Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2020 8:00 am
by GraemeSmith
Hey thanks!
Camguard Automotive wrote:CamGuard Automotive is particularly useful in older engine designs utilizing flat tappet valve trains especially when using modern, mandated lower zinc (phosphorus), oils.
Re: Camguard
Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2020 10:25 am
by AlexZ
VR1 is already high zinc
‘Valvoline VR1 Racing Oil’s high zinc formula provides race-level protection for high performance engines on the race track or the highway. Its exclusive chemistry is designed to reduce friction and enhance power.’
Re: Camguard
Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2020 12:55 pm
by Klimek
Gentlemen,
So as I now understand from reading this thread that Cam Guard is to be used in older flat lifter engines that use a lower zinc formulation. Does this prohibit its use in our AeroVee engines that are using Valvoline VR-1 high zinc oil?
I have, in the past, thought about using Cam Guard because of its high friction surface protection but now I’m rethinking it.
Am I missing anything? Is Cam Guard a high zinc additive that hangs on surfaces long after the engine is shut down?
Onex 090
N1970T
Re: Camguard
Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2020 7:04 am
by GraemeSmith
It’s not just about the zinc.
The other principle benefit of CamGuard is helping maintain oil film over an extended period of non-use. That’s what I’m really after.
Re: Camguard
Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2020 12:23 am
by lakespookie
I thought they updated the oil recommendations to not include the VR-1 oil and only list the brad penn
Re: Camguard
Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2020 6:28 am
by GraemeSmith
lakespookie wrote:I thought they updated the oil recommendations to not include the VR-1 oil and only list the brad penn
Current manual states:
Valvoline VR1 20/50 non synthetic
Brad-Penn Penn-Grade 1 Racing 20/50
for Break in and Running.
Re: Camguard
Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2020 10:16 am
by Rynoth
lakespookie wrote:I thought they updated the oil recommendations to not include the VR-1 oil and only list the brad penn
I believe this was only for the Aerovee Turbo.
Service Bulletin ACV-SB-091616-2A shows more options for stock Aerovee.
http://www.aeroconversions.com/support/aerovee_sb.html
Re: Camguard
Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2020 1:05 pm
by GraemeSmith
I have just had the most fascinating 45 mins on the phone with Ed Kollin - the man who invented CamGuard. Mike Busch at Savvy Aviation tipped me off to him as I had asked about some Camguard applications. Ed started his career in Detroit working for GM, them moved to Exxon Research where he ran their Engine Research/Lubricant testing for 20 years. Then he moved on to Aircraft Specialties Lubricants where they came up with Camguard.
My inquiry was about using it in my current little AeroConversions 2.1 in the Sonex where “Additives are not recommended”. But the discussion was wide ranging and covered Continentals and Lycomings too and I made some notes.
–
He made the following comment about the Valvoline VR1 and Brad Penn Grade 1 Racing 20w50 oils:
The oils are designed for just that - Racing. They are supposed to run one race and then get drained and replaced. Though they ARE Zinc Rich for our valve trains - they are deficient in a number of chemistries that make them good for time spent in an engine - especially if they get critical hot in a turbo. Among other things mentioned - low on Detergents to keep the contaminants in suspension. He recommended that if using these oils - they are not allowed to sit in the sump any longer than 3 months before they are changed - regardless of time on the oils. His view was that Camguard Automotive (not the aviation version) would make up for deficiencies in the oil chemistry - but he still recommended a 3 month oil change interval if you hadn’t hit 25 hours.
There a number of varieties of Camguard - aimed at:
Aviation (Lycoming / Continental)
Automotive (where the engines are much tighter)
Diesel (where the engines are much dirtier)
But in essence they all contain Anti-wear agents
Differing degrees of detergents (3% / 6% and 9% respectively)
11 other chemistries aimed at specific parts of the engine - including chemicals that are polar to certain contaminants to help keep them in suspension to come out with the oil changes and some to keep older seals more flexible.
All to improve the oil you are already using.
–
Broadly - if you start using Camguard (having not used it before) in an engine with 500 hours and up you might expect (Based on Lycoming / Continentail where they have a lot of data):
Iron wear in the oil analysis to HALF or better immediately.
All other metals to RISE over the next oil change and then tail off over a total of three oil changes as they are flushed out the nooks and crannies of your engine tailing back to where they were or slightly lower.
Over the next three oil changes expect to find significant carbon in the oil filter or screen as it is worked out the engine - principally from around the piston ring stack.
For turbo versions of our AeroVees - it would be CRITICAL to ensure that displaced carbon does not make it to the turbo bearings and that your filtration is top notch.
As the piston ring stack is loosened and allowed to float better - compressions might come up by as much as 10 points.
BUT- Camguard will not save an engine that is worn out and coming up on TBO!!
Thereafter expect lower rust (iron) from steel cylinders and so lower wear and lower deposits of lead sludge (that gray ‘butter’ substance) inside the engine..
–
Comments on filters over oil screens:
When Ed talked to Lycoming engineers - they were of the view that allowing the oil change interval to go up to 50 hours when a full flow filter was put in place of an oil screen - was actually BAD for engines. In the sense that for engines not used a lot - the oil would now sit a long time between changes and so deteriorate. Full flow filters (50 microns) tend to have a larger capacity to filter over time than an oil screen (also 50 microns). So the benefit is the ability to catch more “stuff” over a period - not that the filtration is necessarily any better. And as the most destructive wear components are 10 microns in size - they are getting through EITHER 50 micron filter. or screen. So an oil analysis program is a must.
Change aviation oils at 4 months - regardless of the hours on it - after that is starts to deteriorate. That is where Lycoming wished they had been more specific.
So filters are GOOD - but only to allow you to fly up to 50 hours in that 4 month window (on Lycoming of Continental engines). On our little tappet style engines with low internal volumes - sticking to 25 hours is a must to keep valve clearances set and the small volume of oil clean by changing it.
–
Rotax engines. Camguard is absolutely recommended from Day 1. Engines not using it will start to exhibit vibration associated with internal clutch wear at about 300 hours. With Camguard - this tendency has not been observed.
–
Lead “Sludge” in an engine is principally the Lead Bromide left over from 100LL combustion combining with varnishes formed in the oil from deterioration. Using TCP - the sludge is Lead Phosphate. The principal benefit of TCP (which he recommends) is to keep the lead metal blobs off the spark plugs. Not keep the lead out the oil. When he has examined lead sludge in virtually every instance he has found it is 1 micron in size which means it is too small to be a wear factor. 1 micron lead deposits on valve guides are NOT what causes morning sickness. It’s other varnish chemistry that builds up that does that.
I mentioned that after I have drained my oil I put a pint of Mineral Spirit in the engine and work it around to get the last of the oil out. He considered this a good practice if done consistently - not just because it would help get the sludge out (my thinking) - but also because it would dissolve varnish deposits that might be forming and so keep the engine cleaner. Beware doing it to an engine that has a lot of hours on it though. You may well dissolve out a lot of sludge and get globs floating around that block fine oil passages. Do it consistently from day one - or be wary of doing it.
–
Certificated Aero Engines - He volunteered - Phillips xc 20w-50 compared to Aeroshell 15w-50. Chemically and Effectiveness - nothing to choose between the two EXCEPT that the Phillips has a slightly better detergent package.
–
So the man is out to sell me Camguard - right? Well not to me. He volunteered to supply me with Camguard Automotive free of charge if I would share my oil analysis reports back with him.
–
Finally - The factory doesn’t recommend additives. And we discussed this extensively. And if the factory would like to chime in here - feel free!
Ed was of the view that Camguard has nothing in it that is harmful to our engines or oil and a lot that is good. That the recommended oils are not bad - but they are not great if left sitting in engines too long and so Camguard could help. Especially for the environment I am worried about - sitting in salty air on the coast.
–
So AT MY RISK I will try it and report back.
YMMV
Re: Camguard
Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2020 8:48 pm
by kmacht
Graeme - That certainly is an interesting post and I don’t think camguard will necessarily hurt anything but it needs to be looked at in context for this particular engine. Aerovee engines are very simple machines with very wide toldrances and the wear parts on them are very cheap and easy to replace. A new set of pistons and cylinders cost about $150 and a cam around $100. I’m not sure I have heard of any Sonex needing to replace cylinders or cams because they wore out from not using a detergent oil, changing oil every 3 months or not using an additive like camguard. There are also very few places if any in the engine where the sludge you mention can get caught and cause problems. Most oil passages are between an 1/8 and a 1/4 wide at their narrowest points.
As a fellow engineer I realize that it is very easy to get caught up in the theoretical and strive for perfection and lose sight of real world results and conditions. I am interested in seeing your oil analysis results from a purely theoretical engineering perspective but also want to make sure that others on here don’t start worrying about the health of their engines because they haven’t been using camguard or changed their oil ever 90 days.
For one other data point I put around 150 hours on my aerovee powered Sonex before it sat for over a year parked out on the ramp here in the northeast due to some medical issues. I tore the engine down after moving the plane back home and didn’t see any evidence at all of corrosion or wear on any of the internal engine parts. Other than some normal carbon build up on the domes of the cylinder heads and top of the pistons everything looked exactly like it did the day I originally assembled it. I ran valvoline VR-1, no oil filter other than the regular sump screen and did oil changes scheduled according to the manual. To be fair my engine is normally aspirated and my experience may be different than someone with a turbo setup.
Keith
#554
Re: Camguard
Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:55 pm
by GraemeSmith
Not arguing. Just some thoughts:
-
The tolerances are certainly wide - but they are much tighter engines than Lycomings and Continentals.
-
My concern is really a high humidity salt laden prevailing SW breeze across our ramp and maintaining an oil film to protect if not flown for more than 7 days or so t. Others on the ramp with aforementioned Continentals and Lycomings (especially those Lycomings) can see thin rust films VERY quickly in the cold of winter after shut down.
-
We don’t have a TBO - it’s all on condition. Anything that reduces wear metals in the oil analysis - would speak for hopefully extending life before overhaul. Now our overhauls are potentially relatively cheap - but I’d rather be flying than overhauling.
YMMV
Re: Camguard
Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:46 pm
by pilotyoung
Just to be sure I understand, he recommends Camguard automotive for the AeroVee engine?
Re: Camguard
Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2020 6:06 am
by GraemeSmith
pilotyoung wrote:Just to be sure I understand, he recommends Camguard automotive for the AeroVee engine?
Yes - Automotive - it’s formulated to go in the automotive oil.
Re: Camguard
Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:47 pm
by pilotyoung
Thanks. I am going to start using CamGuard in my AeroVee. I also have a RV-12 and I use Aviation CamGuard in the Rotax engine.
Re: Camguard
Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2020 8:27 pm
by GraemeSmith
pilotyoung wrote:Thanks. I am going to start using CamGuard in my AeroVee. I also have a RV-12 and I use Aviation CamGuard in the Rotax engine.
What oil are you using in the Rotax? I thought they specified a non-aviation oil? Correct me if I am wrong.
Re: Camguard
Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2020 8:55 pm
by pilotyoung
I use Aero Shell Sport Plus 4. Originally Rotax recommended a motor cycle oil. But then Aero Shell developed this oil especially for the Rotax engines so that is what they recommend now.
Re: Camguard
Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2020 10:47 am
by bvolcko38
Graeme,
Great topic. I bought a bottle of Camguard a year ago, but was advised by an A&P not to use it until the engine is well broken in, or else the engine would never properly break in.
Aside from that, I was hoping that you found a better oil to use, an oil that was not made to be dumped after one use (racing oil). Lucas makes a zinc additive that can be added to almost any type of oil, for our Aerovee zinc needs. An automotive or even a diesel oil with zinc additive could be good? The reason zinc is no longer in automotive oil is for the sake of the catalytic converters.
Re: Camguard
Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2020 11:20 am
by sonex1374
bvolcko38 wrote:I was hoping that you found a better oil to use, an oil that was not made to be dumped after one use (racing oil).
Bill,
Valvoline VR1 20W50 is branded as a “Racing Oil”, but it probably should be thought of as “High Performance” oil, or maybe “weekend race wannabe but daily driver” oil. It’s not in the same league as a true specialty oil that is used in the big name races. It’s actually perfect for what we want - good protection and longevity with some extra anti-wear additives that help fight heat and friction. It has all the right components for us, and doesn’t really need to be drained after just one “race” (in other words, we can use it for a realistic interval without fear it’s falling apart on us).
My only complaint about it is that it can sometimes be hard to find at the local auto parts store. Shopping around will usually turn up a supplier, or there’s always Amazon (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07ZCQZ771/).
Jeff
