Airworthiness inspection questions

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1

Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 10:45 pm

by Gripdana

I am almost ready to send in my request to the FAA to have them come inspect the plane. I have the EAA certification kit. I am doing the W&B this weekend and getting the last documents notarized. The program letter and all other forms are done. The thing I am unclear about is this. Do I need to have the transponder and pitot/static certified prior to the inspection? And in the log books are they looking for ELT test, prop install, anything about initial oil put in or anything else that needs to be noted about what was done. Other than the airworthiness statement I need to put in the log book?

Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:35 am

by Sonex1517

Shoot an email to Joe Norris at Sonex. He used to be a DAR (wish he still was!!).

Robbie Culver
Sonex 1517
Chicagoland
Tails and Wings complete - finishing fuselage.
N1517S reserved

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 5:10 am

by wlarson861

Instruments and radios should not be part of the inspection since an exp. amature built isnt required to have any. The DAR didnt look at the instalation of the radio or instrument but did review the log books for airframe, engine and prop to make sure they were ready to go.

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 7:37 am

by Onex77

Do I need to have the transponder and pitot/static certified prior to the inspection? NO
And in the log books are they looking for ELT test, NO
prop install,YES Aircraft should be ready to fly, less inspection panels open.
anything about initial oil put in or anything else that needs to be noted about what was done.Up to you on this one.
Other than the airworthiness statement I need to put in the log book? Engine test run?
I have had 5 planes inspected by DAR and FAA and they have all been different. The main thing required is the airworthiness statement. This says it all.

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:20 am

by Gripdana

Thanks for the replies. I was going to wait for the pitot check to send in the paper work. I think I’ll send it in and if I can’t get the check done I should be good. But the shop is right next to my hanger so there is a chance it will be done. As far as the log books. I did do the prop install in the prop log book but I did not even think of the first start since I put that into my building log. I will put that in today. Should I also note any of the Aeroinjector tuning I do to get mixture and idle where they should be?

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:44 am

by wlarson861

You should have the logs current as to hours on the engine. Obviously there will be no flight hours logged (at least I hope not) whether you make a note as to what the hours were for is up to you. Pitot and transponder certification are not needed until you wish to fly into or under a mode c area. Your operating limitations probably will keep you out of those areas until after phase 1 is complete. That’s 40 hours to get those done before you sign off the Phase 1 in the log. If you need the TPX and Pitot check for the area of your test flights that is independent of the airworthiness inspection unless the dar makes it part of the limitations. If so then get it done before first flight, it’s not part of the inspection. The airworthiness inspection is about will this thing fall out of the sky and kill the uninvolved.

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:51 am

by Fastcapy

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 1:02 pm

by SonexN76ET

Prior to my DAR inspection, I was apprehensive about speaking to the DAR or FAA about the inspection. My EAA Technical Counselor volunteered to inspect my aircraft and my paperwork prior to the DAR inspection. The EAA Technical Counselor had a great deal of experience working with DAR’s and FAA inspectors and he was a great source of knowledge. I would also recommend that you contact the DAR or FAA inspector and ask them what they want to see in terms of transponder certifications, etc. My DAR turned out to be a great guy and a great source of information. I now consider him to be good friend.

I originally planned on using an FAA inspector, but the FAA FSDO would never give me a date or even a projection of when the inspector would be there. It was very frustrating. The DARs are normally more flexible in the scheduling and in answering questions. After talking to my EAA Technical Counselor and other homebuilders on my field, I went with a DAR. My understanding is that the FAA will not spend much time even looking at your aircraft, but rather spend a lot of time on the paperwork.

Each DAR and FAA inspector does things a little bit differently and has different expectations. I would call or email your DAR/Inspector and find out exactly what they will be looking for and want to see.

Finally, for your builder’s log, make sure you have some pictures of yourself doing the building at different points in the building. When I went to the FAA to get my repairman’s certificate, the inspector told me that the guy before me had pictures of his wife building the aircraft, but none of himself building it, so he would not give that man a repairman’s certificate. (I kind of think that that other builder was not good at answering the building questions the inspectors ask during the interview either and the lack of pictures sealed it). Again, each inspector has different things that they are looking for. Fortunately I had pictures of myself building in my builders log.

Thanks,

Jake

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 11:45 am

by Sonerai13

Hi Dana,

Sorry for the late response. I was out all week last week and didn’t have decent web access.

Here are some comments for your consideration…

Gripdana wrote:Do I need to have the transponder and pitot/static certified prior to the inspection?

If there is a transponder installed in the airplane the inspector (FAA or DAR) will want to see that it has been properly tested in accordance with the regulations. Pitot/static doesn’t need to be tested, since the aircraft is VFR-only. But the transponder will need to have the proper certification. If your inspector doesn’t require it, he/she is missing the boat and you got away with one. It is not legal to operate the transponder at all until it is tested, so keep that in mind.

Gripdana wrote:And in the log books are they looking for ELT test, prop install, anything about initial oil put in or anything else that needs to be noted about what was done.

The inspector will (or at least should) want to see your construction records (aka “builder’s log”). There is no specific format for the construction records, but you are required to have enough records to prove that the aircraft meets the requirements for amateur-built certification. Most construction records will have info on the items you mention in your question.

Regarding the ELT, there is the constant “discussion” regarding whether the ELT is required in the aircraft during phase 1 flight testing. The regulation specifically exempts flight testing from the ELT requirement (REF: 14 CFR 91.207(f)(4)). However, inspectors are instructed to check that the ELT is installed in airplanes that are required to have one. This is called out in FAA Order 8130.2G, paragraph 4102g(7), so you will get grief if you don’t have it installed during the initial airworthiness inspection.

Gripdana wrote:Other than the airworthiness statement I need to put in the log book?

The main thing the inspector will be looking for is the airworthiness statement. Other than that, there aren’t any specific requirements. Older versions of Order 8130.2 contained a requirement that there be a record that the engine had been run for a minimum of 1 hour, but that requirement no longer exists. So many homebuilts are being certificated with brand new engines these days that the FAA was getting a lot of push-back from builders regarding lengthy ground runs screwing up the break-in. But there are some inspectors who still think this is required, so be ready if you get some comment on that. If the inspector gets adamant, try to respectfully explain that it would be detramental to your engine to run it that long on the ground. If he/she persists after that, just ask him/her to show you where it is required that you run the engine for an hour. He/she will not be able to find a requirement in the current guidance. If this becomes a sticking point, either talk to the inspectors supervisor, or call EAA Government Relations for help. It shouldn’t come to this, but I’ve been down this road with a couple of recalcitrant inspectors, so it does occasionally happen. (We also have run into problems with inspectors insisting that the airplane must have a compass, but this is incorrect. No compass is required for a day-VFR experimental airplane.)

Hope this helps! Let me know if you need anything else!

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:51 pm

by Bryan Cotton

Gripdana wrote:I have the EAA certification kit.

Old post, I know. I can’t find the EAA cerification kit on their website. Anybody have a suggestion?

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 6:15 pm

by GraemeSmith

Bryan Cotton wrote:Old post, I know. I can’t find the EAA cerification kit on their website. Anybody have a suggestion?

Here:

https://www.eaa.org/shop/product-detail … pr=2583379

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 6:29 pm

by Bryan Cotton

Thanks! Unfortunately it is out of stock. Is there a place where the paperwork list can be downloaded? I already have most of my labels and a data plate.

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 6:41 pm

by Bryan Cotton

I found this:
https://www.eaa.org/eaa/aircraft-buildi … -homebuilt?

Does it really take 90 days to register an aircraft? That is discouraging.

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 6:57 pm

by Scott Todd

Your results may vary…

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=6029&p=45373#p45373

Scott

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:27 pm

by T41pilot

Bryan Cotton wrote:I found this:
https://www.eaa.org/eaa/aircraft-buildi … -homebuilt?

Does it really take 90 days to register an aircraft? That is discouraging.

Bryan

I just registered mine and got it back in a couple of weeks. My N number reservation prior to that took 2 months though. Go figure… I think the key is to make painstaking sure that the paperwork is correct in every way including syntax. The EAA registration kit material is definetely helpful if you can find a place to download it. Part of it that is sent in has to be notarized as well. Be prepared for that.

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 6:49 am

by GraemeSmith

T41pilot wrote:

Bryan Cotton wrote:I found this:
https://www.eaa.org/eaa/aircraft-buildi … -homebuilt?

Does it really take 90 days to register an aircraft? That is discouraging.

Bryan

I just registered mine and got it back in a couple of weeks. My N number reservation prior to that took 2 months though. Go figure… I think the key is to make painstaking sure that the paperwork is correct in every way including syntax. The EAA registration kit material is definetely helpful if you can find a place to download it. Part of it that is sent in has to be notarized as well. Be prepared for that.

My change of ownership (pre-COVID) of an already registered plane took 80 days. I was “flying on fumes” of the temporary paperwork! :slight_smile:

But it is not always doom and gloom. My N-Number CHANGE - with a previously reserved number took less than a week. (Lot of folks had told me don’t do them both together - the FAA system works best if you do each item sequentially). I had to go to the FSDO for a (COVID caused) appointment slot with a list of paperwork. There was a pause when I got there - and the FSDO mentioned they had omitted to ask me to bring something. Was not on their letter. Apologies from them. Instead of having me come back - they came to my airport a couple of days later to meet me and complete everything. They arrived with everything printed out already and just needing their confirming signature when they saw my paperwork.

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 7:28 pm

by sonex1374

I put this page together about 10 years ago with the info that I researched (I didn’t know about the EAA kit back then). In any case, it captures the overall process you’ll follow. The FAA has gone to an online submission system (search for “FAA AWC applicant”) instead of mailing the application packet to the local FSDO.

http://sonex604.com/register/register.html

Jeff

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:37 pm

by Bryan Cotton

sonex1374 wrote:I put this page together about 10 years ago with the info that I researched (I didn’t know about the EAA kit back then). In any case, it captures the overall process you’ll follow. The FAA has gone to an online submission system (search for “FAA AWC applicant”) instead of mailing the application packet to the local FSDO.

http://sonex604.com/register/register.html

Jeff

Awesome Jeff, thanks!

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:08 pm

by GordonTurner

Thanks Jeff. This looks super helpful.

Gordon

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:28 am

by Sonerai13

if you go to www.eaa.org/eabkit you will find some helpful videos I did to help you prepare for your inspection. Included on this page is my video on working your way through the FAA’s new AWC airworthiness application system. If you purchase the EAA Amateur-Built Certification Kit and watch these videos, you should have most if not all of your bases covered.

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:36 pm

by NWade

Thank you for the effort you put into producing these, Joe!

—Noel

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2022 5:49 pm

by Bryan Cotton

Ok, I know I’m the slowest finisher in the history of homebuilding.

I just watched Joe’s video, and one thing I’d like to confirm - it sounds like you still have to mail in all your registration stuff via the post office, and then you do the application for the AWC online. Is that right?

Joe, the EAA email on your video doesn’t work. Basically said that it was blocked.

Edit - one more question. Is my serial number 001 because this is my first Waiex, or 191 because that is my Sonex serial number?

Ok, two more questions. Should the type be Cotton - Waiex or Cotton - Sonex Waiex?

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2022 8:09 pm

by Scott Todd

As the original builder, it can be anything you want:) I think its customary to use the SN issued by Sonex, but again, you can do what you like. The same goes with type. It can be what you want. I know Several Van’s builders that wanted the name Van’s included but I tend to NOT use the kit supplier’s name. Your name will be the Manufacture so it doesn’t need to be in the type. Its also pretty easy to look at N numbers other people post to see what they did.

The same goes with the engine. I have two AeroVees. One uses my name as the model and the other uses AeroVee.

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2022 8:56 pm

by 13brv3

The video did confirm a few guesses I made in my application, so thanks for that Joe. I’m at the uploading documents step, and I’m wondering what people are using for the program letter? I was trying to find something recent, and this is what I found at the FAA site:
http://www.faa-aircraft-certification.c … letter.pdf

This is all pretty straightforward except for section 3 - “Describe Program Purpose for which the aircraft is to be used”. Is there a known acceptable statement for amateur testing?

Thanks,
Rusty

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Sun Jan 02, 2022 12:52 am

by wlarson861

one more question. Is my serial number 001 because this is my first Waiex, or 191 because that is my Sonex serial number?

Bryan;
If you are building a kit you should have a signed bill of sale. On mine the serial number and Sonex’s info were filled in and signed. You need to use that bill of sale for registration.

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Sun Jan 02, 2022 10:04 am

by Sonerai13

Bryan Cotton wrote:

Gripdana wrote:I have the EAA certification kit.

Old post, I know. I can’t find the EAA cerification kit on their website. Anybody have a suggestion?

https://www.eaa.org/shop/product-detail … pr=2583379

It’s in the “Books and Media” section. This link should take you right there.

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Sun Jan 02, 2022 11:21 am

by 13brv3

The EAA also sells some products through Amazon. Looks like this was published in 2009, so probably the same as the one I bought a few years ago. Hopefully they’re working on a post AWC portal version.
https://www.amazon.com/Amateur-Built-Certification-Experimental-Aircraft-Association/dp/1734133074/

Rusty

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Sun Jan 02, 2022 1:43 pm

by Rynoth

wlarson861 wrote:

one more question. Is my serial number 001 because this is my first Waiex, or 191 because that is my Sonex serial number?

Bryan;
If you are building a kit you should have a signed bill of sale. On mine the serial number and Sonex’s info were filled in and signed. You need to use that bill of sale for registration.

I had to contact Sonex to receive my bill of sale when I was ready to register. They mentioned that they often don’t include it with the kit shipment due to the likelihood of it getting lost/misplaced during the build.

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Sun Jan 02, 2022 2:44 pm

by Bryan Cotton

Thanks all. I did buy the EAA kit a while ago, I think Graham posted the link for me last spring. I did get a bill of sale from Sonex. It looks like my actual S/N is W0191.

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Sun Jan 02, 2022 6:01 pm

by Sonerai13

13brv3 wrote:Hopefully they’re working on a post AWC portal version.

Already done. One of the last things I did as an EAA employee was to help update the Amateur-Built Certification Kit to include info on working through the AWC system. If you have purchased a kit in the last year or so it should have the AWC info in it.

You can also view my webinar on the AWC system, at this link:

https://www.eaa.org/videos/6160355187001

2

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Sun Jan 02, 2022 7:10 pm

by 13brv3

Hi Joe,

I watched the webinar a few days ago, but there’s no info about the program letter. The old one said something like “for the purpose of operating an amateur built aircraft”, so maybe I’m overthinking this. I’ve got an email into the DAR I used for the last plane, so I’ll see what he says this week.

My packet is a couple years old, and just before the change to the AWC portal. Good to know it’s been updated. I may just order another pack out of curiosity. If nothing else, at least I’ll get another SS data plate with it.

Thank,
Rusty

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2022 4:15 am

by wlarson861

I had to contact Sonex to receive my bill of sale when I was ready to register. They mentioned that they often don’t include it with the kit shipment due to the likelihood of it getting lost/misplaced during the build.

I purchased my kit at the builders training at Sonex and got the bill of sale then. Makes sense to hold the bill of sale at Sonex until the builder needs it.

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2022 11:35 am

by Sonerai13

13brv3 wrote:I watched the webinar a few days ago, but there’s no info about the program letter. The old one said something like “for the purpose of operating an amateur built aircraft”, so maybe I’m overthinking this. I’ve got an email into the DAR I used for the last plane, so I’ll see what he says this week.

Rusty,

Nothing is changed on the program letter. You can use the one that came in your packet. You just need to scan and upload it like you do with the other documents when submitting to AWC. (Remember, you do NOT upload the 8130-6, application for airworthiness certificate. That is the form you are filling out by completing all the pages of the AWC. It will create the -6 form for you.)

Let me know if you have any questions.

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2022 11:47 am

by 13brv3

Got it. Thanks Joe!
Rusty

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2022 12:48 pm

by pfhoeycfi

I have the EAA Cert Kit with a rev date 11/17. Is there a more recent rev?

thanks,

peter

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2022 1:11 pm

by Sonerai13

pfhoeycfi wrote:I have the EAA Cert Kit with a rev date 11/17. Is there a more recent rev?

If you’re talking November of 2017, then yes, there is definitely a newer version. You can check with EAA directly for the latest details. Call EAA and ask for Timm Bogenhagen. He’s the lead man on the kit. He can give you all the details on what’s new and what’s not.

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2022 11:22 am

by Bryan Cotton

pfhoeycfi wrote:I have the EAA Cert Kit with a rev date 11/17. Is there a more recent rev?

thanks,

peter

Mine is 3/21. It has the online AWC info.

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2022 12:06 am

by Bryan Cotton

Joe, question for you (or anybody who can answer). On the back of my AC Form 8050-2 Bill of Sale, it says to prepare in duplicate, except the signatures are not duplicated. Do both go to the FAA? Or is one for my records? I scanned in the signed form for my records.

Thanks!

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2022 1:28 pm

by Sonerai13

Bryan Cotton wrote:Joe, question for you (or anybody who can answer). On the back of my AC Form 8050-2 Bill of Sale, it says to prepare in duplicate, except the signatures are not duplicated. Do both go to the FAA? Or is one for my records? I scanned in the signed form for my records.

The bill of sale used to be a three-part form, two of which went to the FAA and one you kept. then I think they might have knocked it down to a two part form. Not sure, because I haven’t seen a printed one lately. You can now download the form off the FAA website and fill it out on your computer.

I would suggest you send two copies to the FAA, just to be safe, and keep one for your records. I don’t know if they still want two or not, but if they don’t they can always just toss the second one.

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2022 9:07 am

by pfhoeycfi

Sonerai13 wrote:

Bryan Cotton wrote:Joe, question for you (or anybody who can answer). On the back of my AC Form 8050-2 Bill of Sale, it says to prepare in duplicate, except the signatures are not duplicated. Do both go to the FAA? Or is one for my records? I scanned in the signed form for my records.

The bill of sale used to be a three-part form, two of which went to the FAA and one you kept. then I think they might have knocked it down to a two part form. Not sure, because I haven’t seen a printed one lately. You can now download the form off the FAA website and fill it out on your computer.

I would suggest you send two copies to the FAA, just to be safe, and keep one for your records. I don’t know if they still want two or not, but if they don’t they can always just toss the second one.

Lots of good info presented in this thread…thanks. I just recv’d the updated Cert kit from EAA and its rev is 3/21. The expiration dates on some of the FAA docs in the kit are not quite up to date but you can get the most recent on the FAA website.

I am curious how best to fill in the sale amount and date on the Aircraft Bill of Sale provided by Sonex. I’ve heard that some write in $1 and OTC. I also understand that my state, Pa, might want a more accurate number at some point. Also… what is the suggested date (does this XX day of ZZ hereby sell…) to use given that the kit was purchased over period of several years…ie tail kit…airframe kit…engine…instruments…prop?

thanks again…

peter

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2022 10:07 am

by Sonerai13

pfhoeycfi wrote:I am curious how best to fill in the sale amount and date on the Aircraft Bill of Sale provided by Sonex. I’ve heard that some write in $1 and OTC. I also understand that my state, Pa, might want a more accurate number at some point. Also… what is the suggested date (does this XX day of ZZ hereby sell…) to use given that the kit was purchased over period of several years…ie tail kit…airframe kit…engine…instruments…prop?

peter.

Just use a recent date, and I’d suggest you use the $1+OVC for the value on the FAA bill of sale. The FAA doesn’t care how much you paid, and the state will likely want to see receipts or invoices if they get technical. (Some states do, some don’t.)

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2022 10:14 am

by pfhoeycfi

great…

thanks,

peter

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Wed Jan 12, 2022 5:38 pm

by Scott Todd

When I finished my AeroVee powered Biplane 15 years ago, the state of AZ came at me pretty hard for luxury tax. I sent them build photos and pointed out it was plans built entirely from wood and had a VW engine that I built from parts. That was all truthful and I implied it didn’t really have any value and that I had paid taxes on the parts as I went along.

Knowing my Onex might run into same issue, I registered it a year before it was finished. When the State caught up with me, I again told them it was a home built from plans and had a VW motor on it but wasn’t finished. They said to let them know when it was done. I offered to do the state registration early ($25) and they said that would be fine. I just renewed it.

I advise all home builders to register early. Most insurance companies want them registered early too as that officially makes it an airplane. My Onex Bill of Sale was sent in with $1 + OVC.

I have also posted elsewhere I ALWAYS send FAA paperwork in USPS certified overnight mail. It seems I usually get about a week turnaround. My friends that send it regular mail get stuff back in a few months. The FAA says it doesn’t matter but I somehow believe that priority mail coming into them gets handled differently. Just saying what has worked for me… :slight_smile:

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:17 am

by bvolcko38

QVC?

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:36 am

by Sonerai13

bvolcko38 wrote:QVC?

It’s OVC, which stands for “Other Valuable Considerations”. A standard legal terminology that appears on many if not most FAA bills of sale.

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2022 10:20 pm

by Bryan Cotton

Got my registration back today. Yay! It was issued to Bryan Colton, instead of Bryan Cotton. Ugh. It is listed as a Cotton Waiex. I did all the forms as edited .pdfs as I would not want anybody to have to read my handwriting. All my forms are correct, so it looks like somebody at the FAA made a mistake. Any advice?

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2022 8:56 am

by GordonTurner

Unfortunately I think you need to get it corrected right away. These forms must be correct.

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2022 10:27 am

by Bryan Cotton

GordonTurner wrote:Unfortunately I think you need to get it corrected right away. These forms must be correct.

I submitted a web form to the registration branch with all the details and a request for help. I guess what I’m looking for here is someone with experience or contacts that can help. Thanks!

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2022 12:37 pm

by Sonerai13

Bryan,

Call them right away and get the process started to get it corrected. There isn’t any magic that I know other than getting into the queue and just pushing through. You’ll likely have to wait on hold when you call, but stick it out. It will be worth it in the long run.

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2022 2:28 pm

by Area 51%

You can change your name at the DMV for $20 and a 45 minute wait.

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2022 9:18 am

by Bryan Cotton

Good news - the FAA responded to my web inquiry and will mail out a corrected certificate.

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2022 12:59 pm

by Bryan Cotton

I’ve uploaded my W&B and also a photo of the airplane. So on the AWC website, it says my 8130-6 is unsigned. Is that ok? Is it electronically signed?

W&B that I uploaded is included below. If anybody wants the excel sheet I can share that as well. Then you can plug in your numbers and pdf it like I did.

So now I just need to do the program letter. Should I do the 40 hours or the task-based program letter? Not sure if there are opinions out there but I’d be interested to hear them.

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2022 8:08 am

by Sonerai13

Brian,

Bryan Cotton wrote:I’ve uploaded my W&B and also a photo of the airplane. So on the AWC website, it says my 8130-6 is unsigned. Is that ok? Is it electronically signed?

Yes, there’s always an “unsigned” copy of the -6 in the file in AWC. Not sure why, but it’s always there. When you submit the application to the FAA after you’ve uploaded everything, you electronically sign the application.

Bryan Cotton wrote:So now I just need to do the program letter. Should I do the 40 hours or the task-based program letter? Not sure if there are opinions out there but I’d be interested to hear them.

Task-based fight testing isn’t “official” yet, so just use the regular program letter like in the EAA kit. Your program letter doesn’t actually request any particular flight test time anyway. That’s assigned by the FAA inspector or DAR per the current guidance. The program letter really only requests the flight test area and lets the inspector know whether you want night, ifr, and/or aerobatics.

If you don’t have the EAA kit and need a draft program letter, see the attachment.

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2022 9:14 pm

by Bryan Cotton

Thanks Joe! I do have the EAA kit.

Is 25nm still customary for the operating limitations? Or should I ask for more? Anybody in my area (Northern Illinois) have any relevant experience to share?

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2022 10:40 pm

by Rynoth

Bryan Cotton wrote:Thanks Joe! I do have the EAA kit.

Is 25nm still customary for the operating limitations? Or should I ask for more? Anybody in my area (Northern Illinois) have any relevant experience to share?

If I recall correctly, the center of the 25nm radius can be adjusted, doesn’t have to necessarily be the airport the plane is based at. For instance, if you have some big Class B/C airspace say, 15nm to your east, your could center your area 10nm west of your home airport to give you more airspace to work within to the west.

Not sure about asking for a larger area.

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2022 12:02 am

by wlarson861

Contact Josh Bardell, he had an unusual test area due to the airspace around Chicago. If you need a test area different than a 25nm circle just write your proposed test area, The FAA will approve or not. When I tried to expand my test area going back to phase 1 due to engine change, they said they couldn’t approve anything other than my first test area with out a lot of red tape. They said they would push it through if I wanted but warned could take weeks as it went up the chain.

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2022 5:56 am

by GraemeSmith

I had my test area moved from the builder’s original in SC to RI where I now have the plane when I needed new OL’s to go with a new N number. The inspector told me that most of the test areas are now templated in their system. They pick your airport and the system kicks out an “approved” area. Of note that my airport test area gets a fairly large area of farmland, water and islands with a few airports around the perimeter and one in the middle. My airport is on a western corner. Not the middle of the area. At my base airport - two of the runways are not approved for take offs as they climb out over urban areas. He mentioned that to ask for something different was unlikely to be approved as the templates are pretty well considered/worked out.

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2022 9:50 am

by Sonex1517

Bryan Cotton wrote:Thanks Joe! I do have the EAA kit.

Is 25nm still customary for the operating limitations? Or should I ask for more? Anybody in my area (Northern Illinois) have any relevant experience to share?

Bryan

I did my test flights from ARR. I asked for and got an area that was Aurora to Rock Falls (KSQI) to Freeport to Poplar Grove to Aurora.

They approved it.

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2022 2:05 pm

by Onex107

I’m in central Illinois but I asked inspector for two centers of flight, two different airports and the flight diameters overlapped. So I had a straight 50 mile shot in one direction. There was no discussion, not a problem.

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2022 3:41 pm

by Sonerai13

You can request whatever you want for a flight-test area, and as long as it’s mostly over sparsely populated areas, you’ll likely get it. Most of the test areas I issue are larger than 25 nm radius. Some are much larger. I’ve done all kinds of odd shapes too. If you have something in mind, draw it out on a sectional chart and let your inspector take a look. Don’t have to be a circle, and your home airport doesn’t have to be in the center. Talk it over with your inspector and see what you can work out.

3

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Tue May 10, 2022 11:42 am

by 13brv3

If you make a change that requires an update to the 8130-6, such as changing to an inflight adjustable propeller, can you update that on the portal? Under “Create Application”, I see an option for “Amended Certificate” that looks like it would allow you to change the propeller info. Could it really be that easy?

Thanks,
Rusty (Onex 912UL)

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2022 8:29 pm

by pfhoeycfi

I’m prepping for the airworthiness inspection and the DAR says I’ll need to have the ELT test documentation. Artex has a link to a test website that picks up the 406 signal. Does anyone know if that test result will satisfy the DAR?

He did not say anything about having any test certificate for the transponder…do I need that for the inspection? I’m just curious how I would get the transponder tested in an aircraft that can’t yet fly to a test facility…

Peter

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2022 9:25 pm

by 13brv3

I have to believe the report you get from Artex will satisfy them. I can send you a copy of one I did if you need to ask them, but it’s the same thing you’d get if you were a repair station I believe.

My Onex doesn’t require an ELT since it’s single place, so I was never asked for the documentation. I’m 99% sure you don’t need an ELT during the Phase 1 time for any plane, so you could always just remove it for the inspection. Someone will correct me if I’m wrong about that.

The transponder is also not required unless you’re within the class B veil, or at a class C airport. If you do have one, I can’t imagine them not expecting to see the logbook entry. Of course you only need that when you actually fly, so maybe they won’t need to see it at inspection time. It’s a good question.

Rusty

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2022 8:53 am

by Sonerai13

This will vary by FAA office and often individual inspector. Neither the ELT or the transponder are “airworthiness” items. They are operational items that shouldn’t have any effect on the issuance of the airworthiness certificate. The regulations specifically state that an ELT is not required for “flight testing”, so by regulation it is not required until after the Phase 1 flight test is completed. However, most FAA inspectors seem to want to see it installed. Go figure. Transponder should be tested, but not necessarily before the airworthiness certificate is issued. It should not be operated until it’s tested however.

I have never heard of an inspector asking to see test documentation for an ELT of any variety. That’s a new one on me! There is no requirement anywhere in the FAA orders for such documentation, so the DAR is either just being extra cautious, or has been given the “word” from his supervising office. It’s too bad that there is so much variation from office to office, and inspector to inspector, when we are all supposed to be singing from the same hymnal.

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2022 9:25 am

by pfhoeycfi

Sonerai13 wrote:This will vary by FAA office and often individual inspector. Neither the ELT or the transponder are “airworthiness” items. They are operational items that shouldn’t have any effect on the issuance of the airworthiness certificate. The regulations specifically state that an ELT is not required for “flight testing”, so by regulation it is not required until after the Phase 1 flight test is completed. However, most FAA inspectors seem to want to see it installed. Go figure. Transponder should be tested, but not necessarily before the airworthiness certificate is issued. It should not be operated until it’s tested however.

I have never heard of an inspector asking to see test documentation for an ELT of any variety. That’s a new one on me! There is no requirement anywhere in the FAA orders for such documentation, so the DAR is either just being extra cautious, or has been given the “word” from his supervising office. It’s too bad that there is so much variation from office to office, and inspector to inspector, when we are all supposed to be singing from the same hymnal.

Thanks for the explanation. The DAR said in his email that the 91.207 check needed to be completed and signed off (didn’t say by who). I don’t see anything in there, or the Artex 345 manual, that I can’t do myself. I did get a successful test report back from ACR (Artex 345) so the 406 test signal to satellite is working.

At some point I need to get the aircraft to a shop for the transponder test but I’m under the Philly Mode C Veil. I’m not sure how to make that happen given I need to fly to a shop to get the transponder tested and I presumably cant fly until the transponder is tested (I’m assuming the test needs to be performed while the transponder is in the airplane). Do you have any suggestions or clarification for that catch 22?

Thank you,

Peter

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2022 10:48 am

by Bryan Cotton

I had done the ELT test per the manual and wrote it in the logbook. Also IIRC he wanted the battery date in the aircraft log.

Before my inspection I confessed to the DAR that my transponder wasn’t inspected yet. He told me that was an operational issue, not an airworthiness issue. I am out of the Chicagoland Mode C veil so I flew for a while, but was able to get a tech to come to our airport and certify the transponder. That would be a great option for you, even if you had to pay a little more. The test sets are pretty portable.

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2022 11:01 am

by pfhoeycfi

Bryan Cotton wrote:I had done the ELT test per the manual and wrote it in the logbook. Also IIRC he wanted the battery date in the aircraft log.

Before my inspection I confessed to the DAR that my transponder wasn’t inspected yet. He told me that was an operational issue, not an airworthiness issue. I am out of the Chicagoland Mode C veil so I flew for a while, but was able to get a tech to come to our airport and certify the transponder. That would be a great option for you, even if you had to pay a little more. The test sets are pretty portable.

That sounds good. Are there any other entry’s and endorsements that need to be in the logbook prior to inspection? As of now the logbook just has my name in it…

thanks,

peter

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2022 11:18 am

by Bryan Cotton

My DAR gave me a template and here it is with my info. I copied this into the logbook, signed it and used my pilot number too. Print out the equipment list and tape it on the back cover or somewhere. If you can work with your DAR ahead of time it is really helpful.

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2022 11:43 am

by pfhoeycfi

Bryan Cotton wrote:My DAR gave me a template and here it is with my info. I copied this into the logbook, signed it and used my pilot number too. Print out the equipment list and tape it on the back cover or somewhere. If you can work with your DAR ahead of time it is really helpful.

perfect…

thanks,

peter

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2022 8:09 am

by Sonex1517

Peter

Someone else may have said this and I missed it. You need to enter a condition inspection in your logbook. It’s required.

(Thank you Joe Norris for helping me with this process!)

I used the FSDO for my inspection and the paperwork was a huge part of the process. I asked the inspector what he wanted, made a list, and ensure it was well organized when he arrived.

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2022 9:52 am

by builderflyer

pfhoeycfi wrote:
At some point I need to get the aircraft to a shop for the transponder test but I’m under the Philly Mode C Veil. I’m not sure how to make that happen given I need to fly to a shop to get the transponder tested and I presumably cant fly until the transponder is tested (I’m assuming the test needs to be performed while the transponder is in the airplane). Do you have any suggestions or clarification for that catch 22?

Thank you,

Peter

Peter…as Bryan said, you may be able to find a shop to come to you to do the transponder certification. Here, in northern California we have a fellow who comes from a couple hundred miles away to do the certification on many aircraft along a route he travels periodically. So because of the volume of work he gets on his trip, he actually charges less than if we individually flew to his shop. Try calling shops around in your area…

Art,Sonex taildragger #95,Jabiru 3300 #261

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2022 2:19 pm

by pfhoeycfi

After uploading the required forms, I click save and next, or just save and get the message in red. I cannot get the green check mark to appear next to the “documents” field. I’ve tried deleting the forms and re-uploading. I’ve signed out and then back in. NG. Scroll down …the forms are there. Any ideas?

peter

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2022 2:41 pm

by Bryan Cotton

Here is mine. I think the digital 8130-6 was auto-generated from one of the other pages, but I don’t remember for sure.

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2022 4:31 pm

by pfhoeycfi

Bryan Cotton wrote:Here is mine. I think the digital 8130-6 was auto-generated from one of the other pages, but I don’t remember for sure.

Yeah I don’t have that digital 8130-6 entry. Maybe that shows up after hitting submit. I went back to the beginning and did every step per the EAA guide. I can see the uploaded docs in the review section. I just don’t have the green checkmark indicating I’m done with the upload doc section. Its prob ok. I’ll submit.

Re: Airworthiness inspection questions

Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2022 9:35 pm

by Jerry09w

According to the regulation (FAR43 appendix F) the test can be done on the bench. You should be able to drive the transponder to a shop and have it inspected. If it is a new installation with a separate encoder you have to make sure the data transfers correctly from the encoder to the transponder. When I had a shop, I had a few customers who shipped their transponders in for the test.