Aircraft Insurance for the older (80+) pilot in the U.S.
Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2024 2:42 am
by builderflyer
Anyone older than 80 having any luck obtaining Aircraft Insurance at a reasonable rate with reasonable requirements? If so, please let me know with who ASAP as I can’t easily accept what my current underwriter is demanding. Thanks.
Art,Sonex taildragger #95,Jabiru 3300 #261
Re: Aircraft Insurance for the older (80+) pilot in the U.S.
Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2024 10:13 am
by bcharlton
80 is the magic number. Just renewed my insurance on my Waiex. $1900, an increase of $600.
Re: Aircraft Insurance for the older (80+) pilot in the U.S.
Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2024 10:44 am
by bobc170a
Hi Art,
My insurance went up about 150.00 because I’m 76 now and not 75. However I have only liability and property.
I get my insurance through AOPA.
Hopes this will help.
Bob Ohlson…Sonex TD Jab3300…#1325…in Florida
Re: Aircraft Insurance for the older (80+) pilot in the U.S.
Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2024 10:53 am
by builderflyer
bcharlton wrote:80 is the magic number. Just renewed my insurance on my Waiex. $1900, an increase of $600.
I was told I’d see a rate increase when I turned 81 so that wasn’t a surprise. What I wasn’t told was that I’d now need an annual medical exam by a FAA approved medical examiner and an annual flight review in each airplane I own (2).. Since i can’t currently meet those requirements, as of the 24th of this month I’ll be grounded unless I choose to fly uninsured or find a different underwriter.
Thanks for any and all responses.
Art,Sonex taildragger #95,Jabiru 3300 #261
Re: Aircraft Insurance for the older (80+) pilot in the U.S.
Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2024 11:29 am
by Bryan Cotton
I had the opposite problem - getting my son insured in the Waiex as a new pilot. Somebody on the forum had recommended Victoria at Aviation insurance resources and she worked to find a provider that would take him on.
vneuville@air-pros.com
http://www.air-pros.com/
I flew uninsured for a year. Adam flew uninsured until he had 100 hours total and 50 tailwheel. The total time was his limiting factor. Victoria had to find another underwriter to get Adam added to the policy.
Re: Aircraft Insurance for the older (80+) pilot in the U.S.
Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2024 12:51 pm
by N190YX
When my broker querried 12 insurance carriers only one provide a quote and it was very high. The broker, bless her heart, suggested I try AVEMCO who quoted one half the premium of the other quote, but I must have an FAA physical every 12 months and a flight review every 12 months (not a problem for me), flying a Beech Debonair (retractable). Late 70s here.
Re: Aircraft Insurance for the older (80+) pilot in the U.S.
Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2024 2:05 pm
by builderflyer
N190YX wrote:When my broker querried 12 insurance carriers only one provide a quote and it was very high. The broker, bless her heart, suggested I try AVEMCO who quoted one half the premium of the other quote, but I must have an FAA physical every 12 months and a flight review every 12 months (not a problem for me), flying a Beech Debonair (retractable). Late 70s here.
I’m currently with Avemco and have been with them since the 1960s covering various aircraft over the years. When I queried them several years back regarding the aging pilot Avemco assured me that the only change I’d see was a rate increase when I turned 81. When I spoke with them this morning they said that beginning in November 2023 they instituted a new policy that a pilot over the age of 75 would experience the requirements that you mention and what I am experiencing with my renewal on January 24th.
This puts me in a bind because I don’t have an appointment to see my personal physician until March and there is no one to give me a flight review in my Sonex anywhere close to where I live. I also own a Cessna and there is no problem getting a new flight review in it. So the temptation to fly self insured over the long term is real, especially in the Sonex.
In any event, if I choose to fly either of my airplanes for the next couple of months it’ll apparently have to be without insurance. At this point in my life it will take me more than an insurance company to keep me from flying as it remains my principal passion in life and not one that I’ll give up on easily. Aging sucks.
Art,Sonex taildragger #95,Jabiru 3300 #261
Re: Aircraft Insurance for the older (80+) pilot in the U.S.
Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2024 4:03 pm
by Onex107
I built my Onex when I was 80 and flew it until I was 90. My Cessna had been insured through AOPA for many years, so I stayed with them for the Onex. The Cessna policy stayed around $500 per year with full coverage. The Onex policy jumped to $1200 and continued to increase with the years. I was told, on the phone with an idiot, that it was because I didn’t have a certified engine, namely Cont. or Lyc. And the next quote I received required me to only fly with and instructor, in a Onex? The last few years I dropped the full coverage went with liability only for around $700 and when that started to rise, I dropped it all together. This is one of the biggest problems with experimental airplanes.
Re: Aircraft Insurance for the older (80+) pilot in the U.S.
Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2024 6:38 pm
by daleandee
Don’t know if it will help any of the older pilots here but I have had excellent service and fair prices from Victoria at: https://air-pros.com/
Dale
3.0 Corvair/Tailwheel
Re: Aircraft Insurance for the older (80+) pilot in the U.S.
Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2024 12:35 pm
by builderflyer
I am having ongoing discussions with Avemco and until they fully change and/or clarify their new requirements regarding the aging pilot, I would not recommend having an aircraft insurance policy through them. For example, previously the FAA and Avemco said I needed to complete a flight review with a CFI once every two years. Now Avemco says I need to complete a flight review in each of my airplanes once a year (I have two airplanes). So that now means I have to have four flight reviews in the time span that previously one was required. My next door neighbor has had four airplanes so as an aging pilot, Avemco’s new requirement would mean that he now would have to have eight flight reviews in the time span that previously one was required.
Additionally, when I received a recent renewal quote, Avemco indicated that an annual medical examination by an FAA approved medical examiner was now required for each of my airplanes including the Sonex which could previously be flown as light sport with a drivers license serving as a medical. I now have gotten Avemco to change their medical requirements language to indicate that an annual “basic med” physical would suffice for the Cessna I fly and that no special medical requirement would exist for flying the Sonex under light sport rules.
Avemco’s upper management clearly hasn’t carefully thought through these matters before instituting their new requirements last November. This is all very discouraging to have happened with a company that’s been in the aviation insurance business for over 60 years. I haven’t yet decided as to how I will proceed with insuring my airplanes.
Art,Sonex taildragger #95,Jabiru 3300 #261
Re: Aircraft Insurance for the older (80+) pilot in the U.S.
Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2024 9:15 pm
by pilotyoung
Art,
Good job continuing to talk to Avemco. I am glad that they will insure a sport pilot aircraft without requiring a medical.
Re: Aircraft Insurance for the older (80+) pilot in the U.S.
Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2024 12:21 am
by Jim1342
I clicked on https://air-pros.com/ and Malwarebytes blocked it.
Re: Aircraft Insurance for the older (80+) pilot in the U.S.
Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2024 12:25 am
by Bryan Cotton
Jim1342 wrote:I clicked on https://air-pros.com/ and Malwarebytes blocked it.
I’m not having issues there. You can email Victoria directly. Both Dale and I posted her email on the previous page.
Re: Aircraft Insurance for the older (80+) pilot in the U.S.
Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2024 2:15 pm
by daleandee
Jim1342 wrote:I clicked on https://air-pros.com/ and Malwarebytes blocked it.
I got that too on my laptop but it came up fine on my iPhone. Sometimes a script running in the banner will cause that. I told Malwarebytes to allow it and it works just fine.
Dale
3.0 Corvair/Tailwheel
Re: Aircraft Insurance for the older (80+) pilot in the U.S.
Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2024 6:22 pm
by 13brv3
FWIW, I use air-pros also, but through Tracey Martin tmartin@air-pros.com She’s just been fantastic.
Rusty
Re: Aircraft Insurance for the older (80+) pilot in the U.S.
Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2024 8:42 pm
by builderflyer
Judging by what I’ve learned over the past couple of weeks, the subject title could have more appropriately have referred to the 75+ pilot. I currently have 1 million dollar liability policies from Avemco (they are the underwriter) on each of my airplanes, a Sonex and a Cessna 150. After obtaining quotes for liability insurance on my two airplanes from the AOPA sponsored insurance broker (Assured Partners Aerospace) and after having a lengthy discussion with the EAA sponsored insurance broker (Falcon), here’s some of what I’ve learned:
- Except for a very limited number of underwriters that will provide a quote for “high risk” pilots, none of the usual airplane underwriters such as Global, AIG, etc. will now write a “new” policy for pilots over the age of 75. If a pilot already has a policy in effect when they become older than 75, the policy may generally continue on at least until the pilot reaches 85 whereupon the policy may or may not be terminated, depending on the specific underwriter. An example of “high risk” rates for $1 mil liability insurance that I was quoted are $3,683 for my Sonex and $943 for my Cessna 150. The rates that Avemco has quoted me for renewal of my current liability only policy are $612 for my Sonex and $402 for my Cessna 150.
- Don’t go broker shopping. If your are happy with your current broker, stay with them. There are only a few underwriters that write airplane insurance policies and they become an annoyed when they receive requests from multiple brokers for insurance quotes for the same individual.
- Read the fine print on an airplane insurance quote very carefully. In my case, Avemco slipped some unacceptable language into the renewal quote that I had first overlooked. As of November 2023, for us older pilots, they now said that for coverage on both the Sonex and the Cessna, I’d have to have an annual medical exam by an FAA approved medical examiner. That sounded a lot like a 3rd class medical. When I pointed out to them that the Sonex was a light sport aircraft and could be flown by a pilot with a driver’s license, they dropped the annual medical exam requirement for that airplane. For coverage on the Cessna 150, and once they understood that I was flying under basic med, they changed the medical requirement to read that a basic med physical had to be completed annually. Regarding the flight review requirement, Avemco has not budged on their insistence that I complete an annual flight review in each of the insured airplanes. So that means that previously when in the time span that one flight review was required, I’ll now have to have four flight reviews. Thankfully, I don’t own and insure 3 or 4 airplanes as that would mean I’d have to complete 6 or 8 flight reviews every two years. They really need to think about this requirement more closely.
For now it appears that my only practical option is to renew the policy with Avemco. Their rates, given my age, are reasonable. Their medical and flight review requirements are a nuisance but doable. For those of you that are approaching 75 years of age, make sure your airplane insurance needs are locked in before its too late
Thanks to all of you who responded to this subject.
Art,Sonex taildragger #95,Jabiru 3300 #261
Re: Aircraft Insurance for the older (80+) pilot in the U.S.
Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2024 1:02 pm
by N190YX
I have to have a flight review every 12 months with AVEMCO. Not a problem for me and I use it as an opportunity to review the POH for my certified airplane prior to the flight review. I look for a different instructor each time to get more value instead of doing the same things every year. The oral portions of the flight review are typically more than half the time of the flight review and different instructors cover different material in the oral portion. As I keep current, flying 70-80 hours a year, the flying portion is rarely more than 60 minutes, which usually include approaches to stalls in various configurations and power settings, steep turns, and short field takeoffs and landings. If you have to have a flight review in each of more than one airplane, I suggest you do them at the same time so as to only need one oral portion, then no more than an hour in each airplane. By the time you start the engine and start taxiing, an instructor will have a pretty good idea what kind of pilot you are.