Aeromomentum engines

ArchiveBot · July 28, 2018, 5:00am

Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:31 pm

by ihab

Hey everyone,

While at KOSH, I checked out Aeromomentum engines, especially this 100hp one:

http://www.aeromomentum.com/am13.html

https://photos.app.goo.gl/XtEmAJHnwKZzPXLu8

Has anyone checked them out and/or tried one in a Sonex?

My camp partners were saying good things about these people. They source “old-fashioned” engines from China that have a single overhead cam and no variable valve timing, for simplicity, and their redrive is structurally independent from the engine crankshaft and connected by a rubber donut so the crankshaft is not subjected to off-design loads.

Ihab

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:10 pm

by SP1

Hi ihab
I’ve been looking at alternative engines and really like their offering. They seem to have some experience behind them and use the suzuki g13 engines. Not the most modern design, but still more advanced than most.

Glad you were able to get out to OSH this year.

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:32 am

by radfordc

My hangarmate is in the process of installing an AM15 engine on a LSA amphibian. The engine package looks very good.

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 2:44 pm

by vigilant104

I exchanged some notes with Mark Kettering, the owner of Aeromentum, a few months ago. At that time, he was working with one Onex owner one Sonex-B owner, but I don’t know how far things had gotten.
According to him, the AM13 (1300cc, 100HP) engine package (engine, PSRU, radiator, coolant) weighed 201 lbs, but i don’'t know if that included the exhaust system (my guess: no).

He responded quickly to my questions and was helpful. Others have also had good responses from him that seemed honest and free of hype.
The engines look good and they (and the PSRU) have gotten a LOT of time on airboats.
Some things I would want to resolve:

Single ignition system and single electronic fuel system. Neither is Suzuki stock (i.e. engineered/tested with large corporate research $$) and I don’t know how much testing they’ve had in the air. Yes, OEM automotive EFI/EI systems are very robust and problem free, but this isn’t OEM. The hardware (connectors, circuit boards, chassis, wiring) has got to be 100% bulletproof. Likewise, the software has to be designed and tested for aircraft use (i.e. able to overcome failure >or< aberrant readings from sensors and provide a “limp-home” mode that truly allows safe flight). Maybe Aeromomentum has all this stuff worked out, but it’s not easily accomplished.

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:02 pm

by ihab

vigilant104 wrote:… the M13 engine package (engine, PSRU, radiator, coolant) weighed 201lbs, but i don’'t know if that included the exhaust system (my guess: no). He responded quickly to my questions and was helpful. Others have also had good responses from him that seemed honest and free of hype.

I concur with the honest and non-hype-filled presentation from these folks. What they told me at OSH about the AM13 is:

Base price $8,495 upright, $10,495 low profile
Base weight 170 lb
Exhaust $260 extra
Radiator $245 extra
Mount $800-$1000 (Sonex would be on the low end of that)
Total FWF weight about 195 lb

vigilant104 wrote:Single ignition system and single electronic fuel system. …

Yes, I noticed that. They replied that in their view, modern systems are reliable so they are not worried, and they pointed to their years of trouble-free operation on airboats, which is fair enough. Of course for aviation use the limp-home redundancy is more important.

I think that, on some level, we have to trade money for safety. In some sense, are already doing that when we buy a small aircraft like the Sonex rather than a turbine with FIKI that goes IFR in the flight levels. Again, I didn’t get a sense of hype from the vendor, but it’s certainly a personal decision that everyone needs to make independently.

They said they use MicroSquirt for their EFI/ignition so at least it’s a commonly available and understood system with a community around it:

http://megasquirt.info/products/pro-con … crosquirt/

That should be quite appealing to engine hackers everywhere!

Ihab

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:10 am

by racaldwell

The other Xenos being built here at the Melbourne airport has an Aeromomentum engine hung on the front of it. He will be using a feathering Woodcomp prop. I would guess the other Xenos will be ready to test fly within 6-9 months. He built his engine mount and it really extends out far. I have never seen so much space between engine and firewall, ever. He said a lot of that was to balance the lead weights he has for his counterbalanced ruddervators (and ailerons) he made. This will be interesting to see when it takes to the air.

Rick Caldwell
Xenos 0057
CAMit 3300/Sensenich

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:40 am

by lutorm

ihab wrote:They said they use MicroSquirt for their EFI/ignition

Interesting. My experience with the Microsquirt in converting a motorcycle to EFI has been quite positive, I’ve been toying with the idea of converting the Aerovee to EFI using it, but they do have a disclaimer that says “for OFF ROAD RACE-ONLY ground-vehicle use only” so if you come and ask questions about an aircraft installation they might not want to touch you with a ten-foot pole.

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2018 1:37 pm

by SP1

Check out Sonexpodcast Ep 40b. There’s a long bit on aeromomentum engines. As a first time builder way over my head, I’ll probably stick to the jabiru, but the aeromomentum is a very tempting alternative.

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:36 pm

by mfazio

I am quite interested in the Aeromomentum engine. As the thread indicates there seem several Sonex builders working on installations. Any updates?

At Oshkosh Mark Kettering indicated that a Sonex (don’t recall if it was a Legacy or B-model) was in the process of hanging the engine. Sounded promising that they would have a FWF package available in the near future. I’ve been trying to get a hold of Mark via email but no response yet. Anyone hear anything?

Mike Fazio
Waiex #63
Wings, tail, aft fuselage - Done!
finishing up Fwd Fuselage.

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 10:43 am

by racaldwell

Mike,

There is another Xenos being built a few hangars down from mine and he has the exhaust, cooling tank, radiator with cowl flap now installed. I guess the fuel pumps are going on now. This is an A model Xenos but he has told me he is up to #45 on his modifications. This is experimental aviation if there ever was a definition. If you want a picture, I could do that. But like I said, this is not a typical Sonex build.

Rick Caldwell
Xenos 0057
Melbourne, FL

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 4:25 pm

by Bill Sargent

mfazio wrote:I am quite interested in the Aeromomentum engine. As the thread indicates there seem several Sonex builders working on installations. Any updates?

At Oshkosh Mark Kettering indicated that a Sonex (don’t recall if it was a Legacy or B-model) was in the process of hanging the engine. Sounded promising that they would have a FWF package available in the near future. I’ve been trying to get a hold of Mark via email but no response yet. Anyone hear anything?

Mike Fazio
Waiex #63
Wings, tail, aft fuselage - Done!
finishing up Fwd Fuselage.

Thats not good. WHY?? is it that the experimental aircraft engine manufactures are so poor at responding to customers.
I am not for a minute suggesting that Aeromomentum is following in the footsteps of others but be wary of any supplier that doesnt give at least 100% customer service.
Bill Sargent
Sonex #160
X Jabiru Now camit ( enough said)

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:58 am

by racaldwell

Here is one on a Xenos. The fuel pumps are behind the heat shield you are looking at. There is a large cowl flap for the radiator air underneath. The engine has to be raised to get needed prop clearance. It is moved forward to counterbalance the lead used to counterbalance the control surfaces, and other weight in this build. This one is opposite to my Xenos building philosophy, at least in regards to weight, power and simplicity.

Rick C.
Xenos 0057

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:04 pm

by vigilant104

racaldwell wrote:Here is one on a Xenos. The fuel pumps are behind the heat shield you are looking at.

Rick,
Thanks very much for the picture. That looks like the low-profile (i.e. “laid down”) version of the AM13 engine. IIRC, the total weight (engine, PSRU, radiator, coolant) comes in at approx 205 lbs. 100HP at 2240 prop RPM (5800 engine RPM).

Has he got the cowl figured out? It’s hard to tell from the picture, but from other drawings it looks like there might be a portion of the throttle body sitting a little hihg that would at least require a blister on top of the stock cowling–or maybe the whole cowling needs to be re-done.

Any more pix you have on hand (head-on, from the side, etc) would be welcome, this is the first installation I’ve seen of an Aeromomentum on the firewall of a Sonex product.

Mark

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:53 pm

by racaldwell

Mark,

Here are some more pics I took Sat. The cowl is the new Sonex but extended about 14" or so. The top cowl barely clears the top rail on the engine which I guess is a fuel rail. There is a cowl attach point on the side that can be seen. The red mechanism is the prop actuator for the feathering prop, I think it is Woodcomp. Yes, the engine is the laid down 100 hp version.

Rick C.

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:54 pm

by vigilant104

Rick,
Thanks very much, those pictures do a good job of showing his approach. Comments:

It’s surprising to see the engine that far forward, though you’ve explained the rationale. I can only imagine where a (lighter) Aerovee would have to be. At >some< point there would need to be additional tail volume to offset the added area forward of the CG.
There’s a lot going on under there. All the liquid-cooled installations make the air-cooled installations look clean and simple.
I wonder how performance would be affected by a simpler exhaust setup. It looks like they’ve done a good job of folding everything into a compact space, but the weight and under-cowl heat from those long-ish pipes adds up.
Lots of people have had good things to say about the look, fit, finish of the Aeromomentum components, and these photos appear consistent with those reports.

Thanks again.

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:58 pm

by racaldwell

Mark,

He is enjoying the freedom to experiment with his project, guess that is what really matters. I just hope nobody gets hurt. This will be interesting to see how this plays out. I’m trying hard to say positive things.

Rick C.

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:09 pm

by racaldwell

It runs! First start of this engine. Turns out it was running on two cylinders. There was a loose connection on one of the ignition modules and when that was clicked into place, all four were firing.

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Wed May 22, 2019 11:22 am

by maugir

Hi Racaldwell, My name is Mauricio Giraldo I`m located in Bogota Colombia and finishing my Waiex b tail dragger, with an Aeromomentum engine AM15 117 hp. I have a Question what size and type of prop are you thinking,

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Wed May 22, 2019 12:43 pm

by racaldwell

Sorry, but that is not my Xenos with the Aeromomentum engine. It is a few hangars over from mine so I see it frequently. He is using a Woodcomp feathering prop. I do not know the size, sorry.

Rick Caldwell
Xenos 0057

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Thu May 23, 2019 1:05 am

by SP1

Aeromomentum has FWF packages for Sonex Legacy and Sonex Onex.
http://aeromomentum.com/Package.html

Has anyone used?

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 9:58 pm

by maugir

racaldwell wrote:Sorry, but that is not my Xenos with the Aeromomentum engine. It is a few hangars over from mine so I see it frequently. He is using a Woodcomp feathering prop. I do not know the size, sorry.

Rick Caldwell
Xenos 0057

Thanks Rick, by chance do you have his name or Email?

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 11:03 pm

by maugir

mfazio wrote:I am quite interested in the Aeromomentum engine. As the thread indicates there seem several Sonex builders working on installations. Any updates?

At Oshkosh Mark Kettering indicated that a Sonex (don’t recall if it was a Legacy or B-model) was in the process of hanging the engine. Sounded promising that they would have a FWF package available in the near future. I’ve been trying to get a hold of Mark via email but no response yet. Anyone hear anything?

Mike Fazio
Waiex #63
Wings, tail, aft fuselage - Done!
finishing up Fwd Fuselage.

Hi Mike I reed your mensage.[/img] My name is Mauricio Giraldo I´m Located in Bogota, Colombia, South America and I´m finishing a Waiex B 0020 tail dragger, with the Aeromomentum engine AM17 117 hp. Mark has not developed any engine mount for sonex. I´m doing that jon with a friend of mine who in an aeronautical engineer ,is almost ready it looks good.
I have not decided which propeller ??? mabe 4 blades 64¨inch, but I have to modify the cowl it will be 4 or 5 inches longer.
I don´t know how to put pictures here.

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Tue May 28, 2019 12:39 pm

by racaldwell

Sorry, Mauricio, but I do not know his email. He did not like it when someone told him about the pictures I posted of his project even though I had asked permission before I took the pictures. I guess he just didn’t understand what this site was when I mentioned it. For some reason I don’t understand, he does not want to share information with anybody he doesn’t know. At least that is my take on it.

Rick C.
Xenos 0057

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:26 am

by maugir

I just place a video waiex B with aeromomentum on YouTube

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:26 pm

by NWade

I believe this is the video you are referring to, Mauricio?

https://youtu.be/Ko4RFVAMEGo

She looks pretty!

—Noel

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:39 pm

by WesRagle

Hey maugir,

That’s an interesting project. Please keep us posted on your progress. It will be interesting to see the FWF with all the accessories added. Would look great with a 4 blade prop

Wes

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:35 am

by alaskawild

Mauricio hello. Just wondering how your project is progressing?

Thanks!

Sam

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:45 am

by alaskawild

vigilant104 wrote:Rick,
Thanks very much, those pictures do a good job of showing his approach. Comments:

It’s surprising to see the engine that far forward, though you’ve explained the rationale. I can only imagine where a (lighter) Aerovee would have to be. At >some< point there would need to be additional tail volume to offset the added area forward of the CG.

There’s a lot going on under there. All the liquid-cooled installations make the air-cooled installations look clean and simple.

I wonder how performance would be affected by a simpler exhaust setup. It looks like they’ve done a good job of folding everything into a compact space, but the weight and under-cowl heat from those long-ish pipes adds up.

Lots of people have had good things to say about the look, fit, finish of the Aeromomentum components, and these photos appear consistent with those reports.

Thanks again.

I’m puzzled about the CG. That does not look right!

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:09 pm

by racaldwell

Hello Alaska,

Good eye you have there. He made many modifications to the Sonex designed Xenos that it really shouldn’t be called a Sonex anymore. One was mass balancing the control surfaces with lead weight and using spherical ball joints for hinges. The weight of the tail is not normal so he have to make a long engine mount to offset that (& other) weight. The cowl was extended as a result. 1st flight is approaching and I am nervous just knowing about it.

Rick C.

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2020 5:16 pm

by n307tw

Sorry to revive an old thread but I am in the midst of selling my Aervoee Turbo and will be moving forward with helping to develop either the AM13 or AM15 to fit on the front of the B-Model. Waiting to hear back from Mark but given it is a holiday week I am sure I will not hear back soon. Any new developments, or other builders take the plunge with the Aeromomentum family and can share anything with the group? Especially B builders? Any personal experiences with the company since 2018/19 when this thread fizzled out? Thanks so much for any insight you can give. Have a wonderful holiday season!

-Tim

ArchiveBot · July 28, 2018, 5:01am

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 9:56 am

by racaldwell

Hi Tim,

Maybe Larry will part out the Aeromomentum engine. But maybe not, I could ask him next time I see him. He put the Xenos on Barnstormers but no interest. He wants to sell the Xenos but knows the odds are zero. Probably another hangar queen. I’m trying to be nice but it just slipped out.

Rick Caldwell
Xenos 0057

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 11:33 am

by Matt541

Keep us updated on your Aeromomentum journey Tim, very interested in this engine option. Who knows…

Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:39 pm

by n307tw

Thanks guys. I’m very excited to move into this direction. Rick, please ask if he is willing to sell his engine I may be interested in buying from him. Thanks!

-Tim

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2020 9:40 am

by lakespookie

Its a very interesting power plant option but the single point failures are a bit of a concern.

Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2020 9:47 am

by n307tw

I’d be interested to hear more on what you mean. I’m open for all information. Thanks!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Fri Dec 25, 2020 11:52 am

by WesRagle

HI TIm,

lakespookie is probably referring to the lack of a backup ECU. If the ECU fails there is no secondary source of fuel or ignition. And of course the engine is fully electrically dependent.

The most informative video on the engine I have found is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leQWYeHkNbw. Approximately 22 minutes into the video Mark talks about the “claimed” reliability of the ECU stating that it’s probability of failure is less than the probability of two magnetos failing simultaneously.

Wes

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2020 1:50 pm

by SP1

I’ll add some thoughts. I’ve considered this engine for quite some time and have gathered some information, I know there are probably about 5 others looking at this engine. Some facts I’ve gathered:

Pricing- probably the first thing that catached your eye regarding the AM15. This is some of the costing I’ve put together (let me know if I’m missing anything)
Aeromomentum
Engine 12495
Exhaust kit 1294
Fuel kit 733
Cooling kit 937
Mount 1300
TOTAL 16759

Jabiru
Engine 18990
Aeroinjector 410
Mount 1579
Air filter 60
Oil separator 130
Baffle kit 250
TOTAL 21419

Weight
Aeromomentum provides a weight comparison on their site http://www.aeromomentum.com/am15.html, but this lists only the engine weight, not FWF total, which could vary. Some others on the site suggest that the Jabiru installation is above 200lbs (maybe up to 220?). There was a post on the Zenith Forums that showed an AM15 FWF total weight of ~241lb http://www.zenith.aero/forum/topics/aeromomentum-am15-video. I read somewhere else that the weight was reduced by 20 lbs. Regardless, this exceeds the 200 lbs FWF recommmendation by Sonex. The Corvair with FWF comes in closer to 245, as a point of reference http://sonexbuilders.net/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4273&p=32930&hilit=cleanex+fwf+weight#p32930. Dale Williams has an writeup that reasons why a higher weight is okay. From my understanding, the front CG limit (which the FWF weight influences) is often determined by elevator authority. Moving some weight to the back could be one way of staying within the limit with a heavier FWF.

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2020 7:11 pm

by GraemeSmith

Talking of single points of failure. There are certificated Lycomings out there with “traditional” manual dual mags - driven by a single central gear. When that gear fails - you lose both mags. In some ways it is worse than Aeromomentum’s issue because so few pilots are aware of the Lycoming shortcoming.

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2020 10:38 pm

by lakespookie

Graeme Hit it right on the head with the electrical dependence and the single Ignition system. Granted other powerplant options in our aircraft all have their own issues. I am sort of on the fence personally as far as engine options the AM15 is tempting especially in the higher power configurations. Although the base engine is pretty comparable to the Jabiru except 4 instead of 6 cyclinder. Most studies i have read pretty much say a 4 with a dead cylinder is a pretty big loss of power in comparison to the loss of a cyclinder in a 6 cylinder engine.

The Other concern is that the ECU uses an O2 sensor and they tend to not play well with leaded fuels if you are not planning on going to other airports its not a concern but if you are going to be running leaded fuels that is def a consideration.

UL engines are exhobrantly priced and have the same electrical dependence concern.

And the VW’s need a better charging system although i am interested in hearing from someone who has a turbo aerovee and how the performance scales with altitude given a turbo systems ability to normalize or make up for air density in comparison to a non turbo engine. That being said i assume they are cooling limited at some point and depending on the compressor and turbine selection might not be able to normalize at higher altitudes. Additionally, the early breaking/seasoning issues with those turbos is a huge concern from a safety of flight side of it.

The Corvair is another interesting option that is also not factory supported.

Like most things in aviation everything is a trade off and everyone has to make their own decisions on the level of risk and risk tolerance they are willing to assume and i will def be looking at your build in anticipation the 65 amp alternator is a huge bonus and a larger battery in the rear can make up for some of the W&B and electical concerns assuming you are not messing with instrumentation hell i have seen a really slick aux fuel tank in the rear that would pair well to aleviate the W&B questions.

Sorry to sort of go on a tangent i tend to do that but looking forward to your build updates.

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2020 2:09 am

by sonex892.

GraemeSmith wrote:Talking of single points of failure. There are certificated Lycomings out there with “traditional” manual dual mags - driven by a single central gear. When that gear fails - you lose both mags. In some ways it is worse than Aeromomentum’s issue because so few pilots are aware of the Lycoming shortcoming.

Jabiru is the same in this regard. Both rotor / distributor gears are driven off a common gear. I know of one instance where failure of this gear caused a complete engine failure.
Steve
Sonex 892

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2020 2:12 pm

by SP1

Had some additional email conversations with Mark K of Aeromomentum (seems like a real standup guy). The minimum installed weight of the AM15 is 208 lbs with radiator, coolant, exhaust and muffler.

There is one guy who did a trigear legacy with the AM15. Mark mentioned he had no concerns with the configuration.

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 11:59 pm

by lakespookie

Found out they will offer me an engine in parts so this is looking even more intriguing

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 10:02 pm

by racaldwell

I asked the builder with the Aeromomentum engine if he would part out the parts and he said it will probably come to that. He has a Wood Comp (I think???) inflight adjustable prop so this package together could be a good score for somebody. I am envious of his feathering prop. Wish my engine could handle one. This aircraft is at the Melbourne, FL airport.

Rick Caldwell
Xenos 0057

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:22 am

by lakespookie

I am currently planning on the 147 horsepower low profile AM15. The plan is to get the airworthiness at 1200 as opposed to 1150, i should have more than enough power to handle the extra weight there is some small concern on gear loading but I am not planning on any soft field operations. The intention is to add a second battery either in the baggage compartment or if possible farther after as a secondary power source on an independent bus for power redundancy to alleviate some of the concerns regarding electrical dependence Given what we get away with with other power plants with a 20 or 30 Amp alternator i dont think a second battery will be to much of a strain my initial power estimation put me at between 18-28 amps depending on avionics and other things so a 65Amp alternator should go a long way to maintaining adequate charge in both batteries.

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2021 9:54 am

by racaldwell

I have seen a Sonex that was overweight ( est. 1350 lbs) flying and do very poor landings (pilot error). On one landing the main gear titanium rod bent but that was it. New ones were installed and then more flying, well, sort of. In other words, the airframe can take it. That is the plane that may be parted out. For now the whole plane is for sale. And the hangar, and what’s inside the hangar.

Rick Caldwell

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2021 11:26 am

by n307tw

Hello all,

I just wanted to give the experience I have had so far with Aeromomentum.

Communication
I have had a really good experience regarding communication with Mark who owns and runs the company. He is very responsive to phone calls and a bit slower with e-mail communications but does take the time to answer all questions. Lili, his wife and owner, is amazing at getting billing and tech questions answered very timely. The entire company has been a pleasure to work with so far. Dick Gossen who has a business relationship with Aeromomentum owns his own company Aerosales, LLC. He primarily builds the FWF components for RV-12’s for the AM15 but has extensive experience with integrating the Aeromomentum line into the G3X. He took the time to talk to me about my custom setup and how I could integrate it. He didn’t need to do that since I wasn’t buying anything from him, but he is a stand-up guy and a wealth of knowledge.

Single Point Failures
I will address some of the concerns that were voiced about the single point failures as I asked these as well. The oxygen sensor is only there to help lean out the mixture to improve fuel economy. If it gets fouled up and fails the engine is automatically put to a rich setting. I plan on running 93 octane MoGas 99% of the time but will keep a lead scavenge with me in case I need to use AvGas in a pinch. Mark reiterated that he has only had one ECU fail and said in so many words that it was due to improper wiring techniques by the builder. If any other sensor “dies” the ECU automatically goes to a rich power setting and you can plug in with a USB to analyze the code to replace them (similar to OBDII on our cars). The only sensor failure that will cause a dead engine is the cam sensor but he hasn’t had one fail yet. At $47 its cheap insurance, so I may keep one in my bag. Mark says any sensor / coil pack failure is rare but can happen. The fuel pump system is completely redundant as well, only one pump can run at a time. He has not had a single failure of the 65-amp alternator yet. I feel confident that this will be a non-issue, but may integrate a second battery in the cargo compartment.

Mount
Mark has not developed a mount for the B-Model but I volunteered as tribute to get this done. I worked with Rich and Pete at Aviation Composites to develop a mount for the B-Model, Rich already has the mounting dimensions and jig for the A model. He essentially took my tri-gear Aerovee mount, recorded all of the mounting points and dimensions and modified it to work with the AM15. The AM15 uses the same conical mounting points as the Lycoming, so for those who are interested in that option, this mount may work as well. Moving forward Rich will not modify any existing mounts but will weld up brand new ones for A & B-model builders. I started this whole process mid-January and the mount was just shipped out this past Monday. Rich assured me other builders will get it within a 3-4 week timeframe as well.

Propeller
Going back and forth with Mark about the proper propeller for the Sonex was eye-opening and educational for me. I ended up ordering a 4-blade 60" ground adjustable composite propeller from Luga. He pointed out that Sonex sells a 60" for their Rotax applications in the webstore. The Luga is well priced at $1300 and actually was cheaper than the Prince prop I bought for my Aerovee Turbo. Mark says the small diameter needed on the Sonex will require more blades and will end up being quieter also. I was concerned about the increased drag with 4 blades but he reassured me that this is the best option. I have limited knowledge on the subject so I will trust the judgment of an Aerospace engineer. I’d be interested to see what others on here think (even though it’s too late to change the order).

Order Timing
I put my deposit down on the engine on January 4, 2021, and I am picking it up while on vacation in Florida on March 8, 2021.
I brought the mount to Rich and Pete on January 7, 2021 and it was shipped this past Monday, February 15, 2021.
I bought the propeller on January 20, 2021 and it is expected to arrive in May 2021 from the Czech Republic.

Obviously I am excited to have everything and I will post updates as I start to mount it to my fuselage. I will also have updates on how I have integrated the engine into the G3X system. I look forward to input from the Sonex community as well.

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2021 12:16 pm

by pfhoeycfi

Although I have the aerovee turbo installed I’m very interested in this for the future. Will the fw and cowling mods be extensive?

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2021 12:56 pm

by n307tw

Hi Peter,

I already have the firewall stripped with the exception of the battery. I have a feeling I may have to move that as well. I am waiting for the mount to arrive and I will line everything up so I can see what needs to be moved. I discussed with Jeff Schultz whether I should take a fresh piece of stainless and cover the holes or individually patch. I don’t want a hacked up looking firewall either. The only things I will need to mount is the fuel pumps. The ECU will be mounted in the cabin. The existing firewall bulkhead fittings for the throttle and fuel should be ok. I will need to make an additional bulkhead firewall fitting for the fuel return.

The cowling will probably need extensive fiberglass modifications to ensure the air flow goes 100% over the radiator. I will use the Sonex provided side exits for the cowling. I did end up ordering the nose bowl option from Aeromomentum so I will try to mate that to the existing cowling. Luckily I have a few months before I have to deal with that. We will see how bad it is at the time.

-Tim

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:40 am

by lakespookie

Seems like it should be a pretty straight forward interface for the G3X using the can bus from my conversation with mark, I have gone back and forth between a second 7in panel and a single 10inch with the engine monitor they offer i have the panel designs in the panel forum in case you want to take a look at them, looking forward to seeing how you finish this puppy up, As far as the cowling I am planning to keep the existing openings and reposes them one for cooling air for an oil cooler and the other for intake air. Then i need to figure out how to plumb the radiator but i am thinking that something similar to how the a model used to do it with the bottom mount oil cooler was probably the best option. Its probably going to be some trial and error to keep cooling working with my setup and i may have to get creative with baffling but that is a bridge to cross another day. What version of the AM15 did you go with? Good to hear that you found an acceptable prop, given the minimal ground clearance going to a multi blade is really the only option i worked out some of the numbers and pretty much came to the same conclusion. I am very interested to hear for final measured ground clearance with a 60 inch given that most of the props installed on sonexes are 54 or 56, the rotax install is not directly in line with the crank which might be why they can get away with a 60, I was looking at a 4 blade 56 but if i can fit a 60 that would really help with the efficency.

In simple terms what it comes down to is induced drag due to the root of the propeller blade and added rotating mass but given the power level provided by the AM15 especially in the 147 flavor if thats what you went with you really need the extra blades grabing air to make use of the extra power. if we could fit a bigger prop it would be less of a tradeoff but it is what it is. Something else you should consider is how that extra drag will affect power off operation i.e. dead stick landings. From a lift perspective the wing should still fly pretty much the same but the extra drag may or may not have a significant affect on the glide range. Then again hopefully none of us have to unintentionally deal with that situation.

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 10:19 am

by n307tw

lakespookie wrote:Seems like it should be a pretty straight forward interface for the G3X using the can bus from my conversation with mark

That is not entirely correct. I too have gone back and forth with Mark about the CAN bus integration and the Garmin will not communicate with the MicroSquirt ECU on the CAN bus without a converter. He says they are in development to make one but doesn’t have one working. I had a lengthy conversation with Dick Gossen about his G3X integration and he is not using the CAN bus. Instead the easiest method he found was using the tach pulse lead off of the ECU and put that into the GEA24. He then has separate sensors for oil pressure, manifold pressure, oil temp, coolant temp, and fuel pressure. I already have most of the sensors from my aborted Aerovee install and I will use brass Y’s to put my sensor inline with the AM15’s sensors. It may be a little more work, however I don’t have the CAN bus architecture knowledge to try and make this work.

lakespookie wrote:I have gone back and forth between a second 7in panel and a single 10inch with the engine monitor they offer I have the panel designs in the panel forum in case you want to take a look at them, looking forward to seeing how you finish this puppy up

I personally would not waste my time with the 7". I played around with both extensively at Oshkosh and there are features that the 10 has that the 7 does not. Go big or go home, haha.

lakespookie wrote:As far as the cowling I am planning to keep the existing openings and reposes them one for cooling air for an oil cooler and the other for intake air. Then i need to figure out how to plumb the radiator but i am thinking that something similar to how the a model used to do it with the bottom mount oil cooler was probably the best option.

I plan on keeping it simple. I may integrate a NACA duct for fresh air into the throttle body but I plan on closing off as much of the cowling as possible. It is my understanding the focus of airflow needs to be over the coolant radiator. Throwing that on the front in the standard AM15 configuration will be best. Plus, you don’t have to worry about custom coolant line fabrication. It comes with everything in the cooling kit to make it work. I am hoping my integration of Mark’s nose bowl doesn’t make it look like Frankenstein. Only time will tell.

lakespookie wrote:What version of the AM15 did you go with?

I am going with the base AM15. I was initially going to go for the AM15HP but couldn’t justify the extra 4 grand for 14 more HP. Remember that 147HP is only because the redline is higher at 6,800RPM. I personally wouldn’t want to put the extra strain on the motor. As it is, 5,400RPM is a lot of work for the engine but it is designed for that. The extra HP for the 131HP is primarily from head improvements and an oil cooler and the higher 147HP is included in the 131 price but at the cost of the higher RPM like I stated above. Mark says I could always make these modifications in the future if I’m craving the extra HP. All his engines are underrated and Mark states real-world numbers for the base engine are just over 120HP (similar to the Jabiru but better fuel economy at 4.5-5GPH).

lakespookie wrote:Good to hear that you found an acceptable prop, given the minimal ground clearance going to a multi blade is really the only option i worked out some of the numbers and pretty much came to the same conclusion. I am very interested to hear for final measured ground clearance with a 60 inch given that most of the props installed on sonexes are 54 or 56, the rotax install is not directly in line with the crank which might be why they can get away with a 60, I was looking at a 4 blade 56 but if i can fit a 60 that would really help with the efficiency.

This 60" 4-blade is the prop that Mark recommended. He says the prop line is higher than the Aerovee. Sonex does sell the 60 for their Rotax option so this decision is honestly a shot in the dark based on faith. I am really hoping it works out. There is another B-model builder on here that put a monster on his AM15. I think 70" but don’t quote me. (see video below)

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 10:32 pm

by lakespookie

My thoughts on the 7in as essentially as a fall back screen in case i lose the 10" but good to know that it really does not compare. As far as the openings I am currently planing on the HP version and it would be nice to have the 147 HP option at the higher RPM but i don’t intend on flying it at those power levels. I feel the 130 is more than enough for what my mission is although since i do want to go with the HP version i want the option available mostly for short duration high density altitude flying i.e. flying out of the Rockies etc. Not something i plan to be doing all the time or even frequently for precisely the reasons you stated. My mission for the airplane is to fly throughout the western half of the united states with an occasional cross country trip thrown in here or there weather permitting. I guess i wasn’t to clear in my explanation i intend to use the factory designed layout for the AM15 with the bottom mount radiator, but since i do want to go the HP version at least for now. The intention is to use the second air entrance for the required oil cooler. I plan to still do the cutout for the low mount radiator. Of course your progress and performance will probably have a big impact on which engine i end up choosing.

Also that 70 inch looks dangerously close to that shop floor and its not even in a flying attitude yet.

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:27 am

by pappas

Hmmm. How many of us would?

Start an aircraft engine “inside” a hangar?
While standing beside it reaching in?
Bring the revs up?
Be anywhere near that propeller that is spinning, 2-3 inches off the floor, with the A/C in a 3-point stance, and then someday bring the tail up during a take-off roll, or wheel land it?
Perhaps it is tied down… let’s hope.
I’m probably just missing something.

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:33 pm

by n307tw

Hey Lou,

I was wondering the same thing. I would certainly hope that it is tied down. Not a risk I would necessarily take but an insightful video nonetheless. I know the gentleman Maurice who installed this application is on this thread, but has not been active here for some time. I have many questions about his setup.

-Tim

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 8:13 pm

by lakespookie

Any updates on the project Tim?

Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:30 am

by n307tw

I have made some decent progress since my last post.

Things completed on engine install:

Was able to install the modified Aerovee mount and got the engine mated to it.
Just finished up running new wire and mounting and wiring all the sensors needed for the Garmin EFIS on the firewall side (as of today there’s no way for the AeroMomentum’s ECU to speak with Garmin’s proprietary CANBUS).
These sensors included:
MAP, Oil temp, oil pressure, fuel flow supply, fuel flow return, fuel pressure, coolant temperature, gear oil temp, alternator shunt (ammeter), battery shunt, and tachometer integration. Also modified the harness for a relay for the coils/fuel injectors.
Was able to successfully mount the throttle cable and removed the two firewall fittings used for the Aerovee throttle and mixture.
Fabricated and installed new 4ga wiring for starter/alternator/battery contactor.
Fabricated and installed 2ga ground wire to engine block.

Things to do to complete engine install:

Terminate sensors into the Garmin GEA-24 (engine monitor).
Terminate ECU power supply and fuel pumps into existing switches on panel.
Change switch cover plate.
Mount ECU in cabin.
4a. Tidy up wiring with wire loom, zip ties and tape.
Mount fuel pumps on firewall as well as fuel line supply and filter.
Install fuel return line into tank.
Install and fill radiator.
Install exhaust header.
Patch old holes in firewall with stainless sheet metal.

Here are some pictures below.

The three wires hanging are for the fuel pumps.

Modified the harness for the sensors, removed unnecessary wiring for AeroMomentum’s proprietary gauges. Wire loomed everything and made it look neater as well. The coiled wire on the right is the O2 sensor used to help lean out the engine.

Throttle completed and yeah I had to put the K&N sticker on.

I’ll update as more is done. Hoping for first start-up by the end of the month but don’t want to jinx the progress.

-Tim

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:50 pm

by lakespookie

That bad boy is looking great, I will say I def perfer the front facing throttle body of the AM-15. are you going to use mil spec plugs for the pass through or just a wire bundle?

I also have a question regarding the Garmin Interface. Do you know if mark has access to the garmin protocol? There are several can bus interfaces that can be developed with micro controllers, My original thought was to write my own translator/datalogger but unfortunately i dont have access to the garmin protocol so that i can translate the messages and they will not provide it. I am assuming they probably charge a premium to the engine manufactures in order to support interfacing with a fadec system but given its a standardized messaging protocol if anyone had access to the actual message definitions it would be fairly easy to translate the existing can messages into garmin messages.

ArchiveBot · July 28, 2018, 5:01am

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:53 pm

by lakespookie

Also do you know what kind of O2 sensor it uses i feel like alot of us who use this engine will end up in the rich mode as 02 sensors and 100LL do not play well together most O2 sensors dont last longer than 25 to 50 hours unfortunatly due to lead depositing. I also dont think decalin would do much to help as from what i have read it tends to just push the deposits out of the engine and into the exaust where you guessed it that 02 sensor lives.

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 4:09 pm

by GordonTurner

My understanding is that a carefully place O2 sensor will live a pretty long time in the lead. Not carefully placed, not very long. I think correct is 10 or 12” downstream of the exhaust valve and clocked just a little off the vertical (near the top of the exhaust point at the point where it is installed).

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:42 pm

by n307tw

Thanks for the compliment. It really is a very clean looking setup.

lakespookie wrote:I will say I def perfer the front facing throttle body of the AM-15. are you going to use mil spec plugs for the pass through or just a wire bundle?

I wasn’t given a preference on where the throttle body was mounted but I think it works very well there. Maybe it is different for the AM15HP, mine is just the AM15h. I may do a NACA scoop from the cowling to provide fresh air for the intake when I get to that point. I have all of my wiring going through a 1" stainless steel passthrough that will be covered with an insulator and coated in 3M fire barrier caulking. The ECU harness will be through a grommet and covered with a small stainless plate and also covered in 3M fire barrier caulking. The complexity for mil-spec pass throughs for my application is cost prohibitive at this point plus any extensive wiring harness modifications including cutting and splicing on the connectors will undoubtedly void their harness warranty (it’s questionable the minor modifications I made void the wiring warranty as well).

Remember simplicity with wiring is best practice. Any additional connection is another potential failure point in my humble opinion. Additionally, Garmin is implicit that the majority of their sensors and accessories use shielded wiring. Breaking that shielding to go through a firewall connector could introduce unwanted interference into the system (although probably unlikely). I prefer straight runs from the LRUs to the sensors and I follow the Garmin manual to the letter on their wiring specifications and techniques.

lakespookie wrote:I also have a question regarding the Garmin Interface. Do you know if mark has access to the garmin protocol?

Mark does not have access and like you stated Garmin will not give it up that easy if at all. It is possible that if there is enough interest in AeroMomentum and Garmin together in the experimental community Garmin may work to integrate the MicroSquirt ECU CANbus on their secondary bus like they did for Rotax. They will not allow a non-Garmin device such as the ECU on their primary CANbus used for all the LRUs for fear of network corruption and collapse. The decision to pursue secondary integration would be entirely up to Garmin and not Mark.

If we are speaking honestly though, the ECU Mark uses literally only monitors coolant temperature, tachometer (crank sensor), and the O2 sensor…that’s it! There is the option to add more sensors into the ECU but that’s only to utilize AeroMomentum’s proprietary engine monitor (AeroGraph) and has nothing to do with engine function. I am not using their monitor and the hassle of trying to integrate the ECU into the Garmin is not worth it. At the end of the day, two of the three data points I can get readily with existing wiring (and you don’t even have a way of visualizing the O2 sensor on the Garmin). The ECU gives wires for the data on coolant temperature and the tachometer (2 pulses per revolution) to integrate with any EFIS. I ended up having a lot of the sensors from my previous Aerovee setup, but I am monitoring far more than even Mark offers. This includes Manifold Pressure, Gear Oil Temp, Coolant Temp, Engine Oil Pressure, Engine Oil Temp, Fuel Flow Supply & Return, Fuel Pressure, and Amperage for both the alternator and battery load. It took a while to wire all this stuff up, but I’d rather have too much information on the screen than not enough.

lakespookie wrote:Also do you know what kind of O2 sensor it uses

Its a generic. The number on it is 0258005345. Click here for one on AliExpress. I’ll be running 93 MoGas so I won’t have the fouling problem, Mark says it runs fine with 100LL if that’s your choice.

Let me know if you have any more questions, I’ll be happy to answer them if I can.

-Tim

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:59 am

by lakespookie

Thanks for that data dump Tim, unfortunately based on my mission for the plane I will be taking longer trips so I have to kind of live and die by 100LL, I was also under the impression that the can bus provided more information that being said I would be interested in seeing your wiring schematic if you have it handy especially with the added sensors for gear oil temp etc. I wonder if it would be feasable to also add some kind of warning light for low gear oil granted you would never expect it to be empty but if it was empty it would be good to know lol, Then Again that just introduces another failure point into the gearbox.

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 12:11 pm

by n307tw

Unfortunately my wiring schematic is a mess of drawings and mark-ups on the Garmin manual. I highly suggest you look into downloading the Garmin G3X installation manual (here). More specifically focus on looking through sections 26, 30, 33, and 34. That will give you the schematics and the foundation for wiring and programming the G3X for your needs.

lakespookie wrote:I wonder if it would be feasable to also add some kind of warning light for low gear oil

I do not believe a sensor to monitor the gear oil amount is feasible at all. There is a sight glass to observe the level of fluid during pre-flight. Of course monitoring oil temperature is the best route because if it is getting too hot, there may be a leak or secondary issue going on. I simply replaced one of the plugs with a 1/4-17 MNPT - 1/8-27 FNPT fitting and a simple single wire VDO 323057 temperature sensor screwed into that (this is the same sensor used on Rotax 912/914 engines). I am using that same sensor for the oil temperature as well. For Manifold Pressure Sensor/Fuel Pressure Sensor/Oil Pressure Sensor I am using the three wire Kavlico sensors recommended by Garmin, click links for prices, SteinAir tends to have them cheaper than ACS. The fuel return is a Red Cube FT-60. The fuel supply I bought new old stock at Oshkosh 2019 for very cheap and it is a Floscan 201 (if I were you and you want to monitor fuel flow, I would just buy two red cubes - much cheaper). The ammeter shunts are the Garmin recommended 100amp kind and also cheapest through SteinAir.

When you get to the point where you are doing the wiring, SteinAir has the best prices for mil-spec wire, Garmin termination kits, and connectors. Just some food for thought. Good luck and let me know if you need anything else.

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 1:10 pm

by lakespookie

I am a ways away from wiring but the plan is to wire up per the garmin specifications and thanks for the tip on steinair i do have the garmin manuals downloaded. I have a plan for the wiring and a basic schematic but engine sensors are still the up in the air question.

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Sat Apr 24, 2021 8:44 pm

by lakespookie

Tim I know you bought the ground ajustable prop for your bird, But did you consider the airmaster prop? I am thinking i might be able to get away with less induced drag and potentially a 3 blade over a 4 blade by going ajustable.

Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Sat Apr 24, 2021 10:44 pm

by n307tw

Video is up on YouTube on my Aeromomentum AM15h install so far on my tri-gear B-Model. Includes a brief view of my panel and how to start the engine and its operation. More videos coming as the build progresses.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:51 am

by BRS

Very nice. Thanks for the video.

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:36 am

by lakespookie

n307tw wrote:Video is up on YouTube on my Aeromomentum AM15h install so far on my tri-gear B-Model. Includes a brief view of my panel and how to start the engine and its operation. More videos coming as the build progresses.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

have you gotten your prop yet?

Also if you dont mind sharing could you give me a rough estimate on total installed cost.

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:48 am

by n307tw

Hello All!

I am sorry but it has been a while since I have posted. All is well with the Aeromomentum AM15h! In July I was working on refurbishing an old hangar and finally moved the Sonex out there. Very happy that the BadAss-B has a new home to live in. I still have not received my propeller and that is no fault of Mark or Aeromomentum. In fact Mark has gone out of his way to communicate with the manufacturer and also offer insight as to other options. I originally ordered a 4-bladed 60" Propeller from Luga in January. Luga is based in the Ukraine and are citing Covid-19 as well as domestic problems within the country for the delay. I understand that but at the same time it has limited my ability to really ground test the plane and engine. Granted, I still have several more items to complete on the plane but I am anxious to taxi her around the airport. In the meantime I decided to order a 3-bladed 62" propeller with nickel leading edges from Warp Drive since we really can’t be sure when/if this Luga prop will ever arrive. For the HP the engine puts out as well as the geared-drive, others have used this same Warp propeller on Rotax 914 as well as the Vikings.

The big issue with any Tri-Gear Sonex and this engine choice is the ground clearance to the tip of the prop. With the standard tri-gear front fork provided by Sonex I measured it as being a 6" clearance with the 60" prop and 5" clearance with the 62" prop. The FAA dictates that there must be a minimum of 7" for a tri-gear and 9" clearance for a tail dragger. I am not sure, but I don’t think being in the experimental category foregoes this requirement, and honestly it is probably best practice as well to follow these minimum requirements.

FAA wrote:FAR 14 § 25.925 Propeller clearance.
Unless smaller clearances are substantiated, propeller clearances with the airplane at maximum weight, with the most adverse center of gravity, and with the propeller in the most adverse pitch position, may not be less than the following:

(a) Ground clearance. There must be a clearance of at least seven inches (for each airplane with nose wheel landing gear) or nine inches (for each airplane with tail wheel landing gear) between each propeller and the ground with the landing gear statically deflected and in the level takeoff, or taxiing attitude, whichever is most critical. In addition, there must be positive clearance between the propeller and the ground when in the level takeoff attitude with the critical tire(s) completely deflated and the corresponding landing gear strut bottomed.

In order to combat this slight ground clearance issue I decided to modify the front fork of my Model-B. This can technically be done with any Sonex model but I am absolutely sure the factory will not look too kindly on this post. The first step that I did was cut the forks off of the gear leg.

Then I took a 1/4" thick piece of high strength steel cut to 4"x4" and had it welded to the remaining portion of the fork/gear leg. Small gussets were added perpindicular to the airstream so that there wouldn’t be any additional induced drag.

I primed and spray painted this new mount glossy black. I then mounted a Zenith CH-701 front fork onto this larger mount with AN4 hardware and painted that as well to match.

I then mounted the Zenith axle and drilled additional holes so that the wheel could be moved up or down. It worked out great and allows me to use a 5.00-5 tire on the front as well. The new larger tire is a drastic difference from the smaller Chinese tire that originally was meant for the plane.

Final product and sitting in the newly refurbished hangar.

Let me know what you think about this mod…good/bad/indifferent, I like constructive feedback.

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:35 am

by Bryan Cotton

Nice workmanship, but looks heavy. Weight is the enemy. Maybe tailwheel would have been the way to go with this engine. I guess that would bring its own challenges as you would still want prop clearance at a level attitude on the ground.

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:41 am

by n307tw

I totally agree. It indeed looks heavy but the original forks on the gear leg were steel and the Zenith fork I added is aluminum. A net gain of less than 5 pounds, I should have put that in the above post. Every pound adds up but necessary in this case. If I switch out the Odyssey battery for an EarthX it will reduce my FWF weight. Still debating that.

I think the tailwheel guys could extend their front gear several inches without a terrible result and gain the clearance they would need for a larger prop. The FAA rule says 9" clearance and I think that with this engine they would have that without doing any modifications.

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:21 am

by Bryan Cotton

I went with an EarthX. I still ended up at 674 lbs, too heavy in my opinion. Now I understand why you used bolts, I didn’t realize the fork was aluminum.

Since you can weld, why not just re-fabricate the gear? Or weld in a tube section to make it taller?

With a tailwheel, as you lengthen the gear, you are also changing the balance point. Maybe it would be fine, but something that would need to be considered.

ArchiveBot · July 28, 2018, 5:02am

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:59 am

by n307tw

I can’t weld at all. I paid a fine professional to do it for me but I fabricated everything necessary. I didn’t want to mess with the structural component of the tube since I know that is strong enough. We talked about lengthening the fork itself but I wanted the option of putting bigger tires on someday. Hopefully the few pounds added won’t negatively impact the plane, it is already a bit heavy. I figure dry weight will probably be 750 but I plan on increasing gross to 1,200 lbs because of the higher HP engine.

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:04 pm

by lakespookie

Looking good, Sucks about the Prop not arriving but at least you have an interim and or final solution. I really like that fork mod i have been wanting to go larger wheels the main gear and posibly a tracy obrian kit or something similar for toe brakes but being a tri gear similar to your setup the front fork was always a limiting factor on potentially making that change. The Install looks great and has given me a few ideas. did you check final geometry with the bigger tire and fork for changes in the rake? as long as the geometry stays the same handling should be pretty similar either way i would def do some low speed and high speed taxi testing to validate the stability of the change.

P.S. When conducting a high speed taxi test plan for it to potentially turn into a flight. I work in aerospace and an accidental first flight has saved our bacon on a handful of occasions although those kind of suprises are never good. But then thats why its Flight Testing and not Flight Demos.

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:38 pm

by Bryan Cotton

lakespookie wrote:P.S. When conducting a high speed taxi test plan for it to potentially turn into a flight.

Even better, don’t do high speed taxi testing. I’m also an aerospace person and formerly a flight test person.

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:03 pm

by new_flyer

Following this thread as I’m looking at building a Waiex-B or an Onex in the next couple years and this engine is a very viable option in my mind. thanks for posting and hope to continue to follow your journey.

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2021 12:39 am

by DCGULL

I’m unsure, but I thought the smaller AM13 was lighter and under 200Lbs. with EVERYTHING mounted ?(coolant, radiator, oil cooler, dual fuel pumps, etc..) I think the base option is: 100HP, next stop 117HP & all da money 131HP? Also, I thought the AM13 was the engine running all of those prop. boats in the heat?

Slightly smaller, slightly lighter, more hours at full tilt- more ‘in use’ in various configurations. Probably closer to fitting the “Universal Cowl” option for the B…If memory serves, it mounts FWF on the Rotax mount available from several sources including Sonex?

I like smaller, lighter and fits without dozens of hours of planning, redesigns & working in fiberglass (really hate working in glass folks!) and 117HP is more than the AeroVee Turbo and may weigh less ‘all in’. Quieter, smoother & pretty reliable (single ECU aside- CRM & Risk Management considered) but don’t want to run a 64" prop to get there? Any chance to use a different or regeared PSRU instead? We are talking Rotax revs on this motor… Or, will Mark Kettering consider changing the redrive unit helical gear tooth ratio to get the prop in the 3,200 - 3,600 MAX RPM range?
That would allow me to keep CG closer to original design and stay ‘normal’ in weight & balance calcs going forward… Simple guy- simple thoughts. Anybody else thinking this way?

Dave
Guest with goals
Waiex B taildragger, center stick & aerobatic ailerons with Aeromomentum AM13 slant mount 117HP. MGL avionics, LiFePO4 battery & mebbe even a couple of steam gauges to remain age appropriate!

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:52 pm

by new_flyer

Just checking in to see how builds and completed projects are coming with this engine. I’d love to hear any feedback about these engines. I really like this engine and the capabilities it comes with as a suitable Rotax\Aerovee replacement.

thanks for any feedback and if anyone has one near CT, I’d love to come the a look at it and talk to you about the install and such.

Jeremy

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2023 9:17 pm

by n307tw

new_flyer wrote:Just checking in to see how builds and completed projects are coming with this engine. I’d love to hear any feedback about these engines. I really like this engine and the capabilities it comes with as a suitable Rotax\Aerovee replacement.

thanks for any feedback and if anyone has one near CT, I’d love to come the a look at it and talk to you about the install and such.

Jeremy

Hey Jeremy,

After some time off for health and life events I am back at it, building the Sonex. I have the AM15h mounted on the front of my B-Model. Mounted the wings friday and I am currently working on fiberglass modifications to the cowling. The plan is to taxi test by the end of March and hopeful for first flight by the summer. It has been a long road but certainly not due to the Aeromomentum engine at all. I am located on the field at FOK if you take a ride south over the sound.

-Tim

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2023 12:09 pm

by ddeford

Just found this thread and enjoyed reading it. I’ve been following Tim’s build in FB pretty closely, but I’m planning to install the AM13 on my Sonex B.

Regarding sensors and EMS displays, I was chatting with Mark K while I was at SnF about engine monitoring options and the Microsquirt data standard. He sent me the documentation on it and between that and other online info, I learned a ton about CAN message data formats (there are several).

That led me to a super cool set of open source projects called MakerPlane (makerplane.org) . At this point I feel very confident that it wouldn’t be terribly difficult to use an Arduino (or similar microcontroller) to build a MicroSquirt to CAN-FiX bridge to collect Aeromomentum engine data, convert it, and display it on the MakerPlane EFIS (CAN-FiX being the MakerPlane CAN standard).

Here’s a YouTube video I did that demonstrates my simple test implementation:
https://youtu.be/hilpmA7j6Pg

I’ve continued to play around with it over the last couple of weeks and have had quite a bit of success integrating more and more mock data as well. Obviously, that data will eventually come from either the Aeromomentum MicroSquirt ECU or separately installed sensors. I’m not sure what all sensors are installed on a new AM engine, so it’ll be some combination of both.

Anyway, I’m still looking into building an ADAHRS board for flight data, but building my own EMS doesn’t appear to be very difficult and it’s likely what I’ll be doing for my build.

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2023 11:53 am

by greenAs532

Sorry if this has been answered elsewhere, but would the Aeromomentum engine be capable of inverted operation for aerobatics?

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2023 5:54 pm

by lakespookie

Short answer is No,

Alternate Answer is it depends,

You should have no issues with positive G Maneuvers although per the updated Flight test standards you will have to perform it and signoff on it before its permitted.

The Sonex line is not designed for negative G from a fuel system perspective although the airframe is rated for it, you do not have a flop tube in the tank and the vent system will drop fuel in negative G, The Aeromomentum does not have a Scavenge oil pump and is not equipped to flow engine oil from the top of the engine or to prevent oil from escaping,

That being said it is an experimental platform so if you wanted to take the leap those issues could be solved but you would be putting the experimental in experimental. As opposed to utilizing the educational carveout of the experimental Airworthiness cert.

YMMV but at a minimum you would have to convert it to a dry sump platform seal the top, add scavenging to the bottom and top of the motor, deal with the fuel vent system, and provide a method for supplying fuel inverted and oil inverted if you wanted to support negative G maneuvers(Inverted Flight falling under this umbrella).

Re: Aeromomentum engines

Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2024 2:11 am

by greenAs532

I share @dcgull’s interest in a higher prop speed than the stock AM13/AM15, and Mark tells me their two-gear PSRU can have as low as a 2.05:1 ratio. There’s some additional cost ($300) and lead time (+3 months).