Aerobatic Ailerons, yes/no?
Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2023 5:14 pm
by mccool
I’ve come to a crossroads in my Sonex A project. Aerobatic ailerons or standard. I have everything I need for either one.
I’d like to hear from those who’ve done the big ailerons about the pros and cons.
Re: Aerobatic Ailerons, yes/no?
Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2023 5:47 pm
by Bryan Cotton
Yes. They are awesome. Lots of roll authority especially at low speeds. I don’t seem to miss the extra flaps at all. Some discussion here:
viewtopic.php?f=58&t=5892&p=50714#p50714
Some rolls:
https://youtu.be/uTWFlcIRJlE?si=g00cR7o-qogF-BKH
Re: Aerobatic Ailerons, yes/no?
Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2023 7:33 pm
by Area 51%
Can’t speak to the roll rate of standard vs aerobatic ailerons, but unless Adam has super-human strength, he looks to have a much easier time of deploying the shorter flaps than I ever did with the longer option.
Re: Aerobatic Ailerons, yes/no?
Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2023 7:57 pm
by Bryan Cotton
Area 51% wrote:Can’t speak to the roll rate of standard vs aerobatic ailerons, but unless Adam has super-human strength, he looks to have a much easier time of deploying the shorter flaps than I ever did with the longer option.
Our flap forces are very manageable. Never tried the big flaps.
Re: Aerobatic Ailerons, yes/no?
Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2023 2:16 am
by Kai
I have the big flaps on my own Legacy, but I´ve flown both. For me the most notable difference was far less float after flare during landing with the short ones: the sooner the wheels are on the ground, the sooner you can brake and shorten rollout. Stall speed unquestionably goes up- I´d say 3-5 kts. The original reason for the big flaps was that the Sonex was designed for the european ultralight rules: they specify a stall speed of no more than 35 kts at MTOM.The larger ailerons improve roll, but IMHO are really not needed unless you plan for a lot of aerobatics. I can´t say they feel much heavier than the short ones. If I should do it again, I would go for the short flaps.
Re: Aerobatic Ailerons, yes/no?
Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2023 9:33 am
by BobDz
Might be a silly question (be kind), as I’ve never done a barrel roll in my life but it is on my bucket list.
So can you do a barrel roll with the “standard” ailerons?
Re: Aerobatic Ailerons, yes/no?
Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2023 10:35 am
by Bryan Cotton
BobDz wrote:Might be a silly question (be kind), as I’ve never done a barrel roll in my life but it is on my bucket list.
So can you do a barrel roll with the “standard” ailerons?
I am sure you can. Lots of people doing aerobatics with standard ailerons.
Re: Aerobatic Ailerons, yes/no?
Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2023 10:50 am
by Bryan Cotton
The Smith brothers (not actually brothers AFAIK) have some standard aileron aerobatic videos.
https://youtu.be/8mN04-XPr9k?si=jI2xsOA_kkAYQELr
https://youtu.be/0wTyop6zxF8?si=0ixatZa2fzpl8eft
Re: Aerobatic Ailerons, yes/no?
Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2023 12:51 pm
by Sonerai13
I believe you posted this same question on the Sonex Builders FaceBook page, and I will give you the same answer here as I did there (with a bit more detail)…
If I were building the airplane, I would go with Aerobatic ailerons. Not so much for any added roll response (since the standard ailerons are plenty light and responsive) but more for the better match of the flaps with the airframe. I really like the landing performance of the shorter flaps. This is likely a personal feel/preference issue, but then, anyone’s answer to your question will come down to personal preference.
I flew all the factory prototypes during my time as a Sonex employee, and my very favorite airplanes in the fleet were the tailwheel Onex (for absolute best performance/handling balance), SX-1 (the original Sonex prototype, with its 3300 Jabiru engine, it was a real rocket ship), and the Acro Sonex (especially with the turbo engine. Best handling Sonex and almost as good on performance as SX-1). They are ALL great airplanes, but those were my personal favorites.
Re: Aerobatic Ailerons, yes/no?
Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2023 2:37 pm
by N190YX
Regarding performing a roll (barrel roll), just about any airplane can be rolled, shown by the Boeing test pilot performing a roll during the first public demonstration flight of the 707/KC135 prototype (much to the consternation of the Boeing CEO). My point is you can roll just about any airplane, you do not need a rapid roll rate. The easiest way is to nose down to pick up extra airspeed, then pull the nose up above the horizon, then apply full aileron (and some rudder, depending on the airplane) in the desired direction of the roll, and level out at level flight at the end of the roll. The nose will be below the horizon at the end of the roll so gently bring it up to level flight. This method of performing a roll would not disturb a cup of coffee sitting on the glare shield!
I’m planning the large ailerons for the purpose of having the resulting easier to deploy smaller flaps.
Re: Aerobatic Ailerons, yes/no?
Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2023 5:06 pm
by Skippydiesel
Looking for others experince using flaps -
My Sonex Legacy has the standard (large flaps) arrangement.
I only ever use flaps 1&2 - 3 doesn’t seem to do anything much and is very hard/heavy to select.
I, as you would expect, makes by far the most change to low speed handling.
2, just seems to add drag - which is useful on late final.
Stall speeds - 40 knots clean, Flap 1 -37 knots , Flap 2 - 37 knots, Flap 3- 37 knots
Re: Aerobatic Ailerons, yes/no?
Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2023 6:47 pm
by Bryan Cotton
Skippydiesel wrote:Looking for others experince using flaps -
My Sonex Legacy has the standard (large flaps) arrangement.
I only ever use flaps 1&2 - 3 doesn’t seem to do anything much and is very hard/heavy to select.
I, as you would expect, makes by far the most change to low speed handling.
2, just seems to add drag - which is useful on late final.
Stall speeds - 40 knots clean, Flap 1 -37 knots , Flap 2 - 37 knots, Flap 3- 37 knots
With the short flaps, and center controls, I only have two positions. I use one notch for takeoff, gets me off the ground a lot quicker. The second notch adds a lot of drag, which is a good thing.
Re: Aerobatic Ailerons, yes/no?
Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2023 10:27 pm
by sonex892.
Skippydiesel wrote:Looking for others experince using flaps -
I too only have the standard flaps / ailerons. I only use full flap when too high on final which is great for steepening the glide.
I have not flown with the acro ailerons but imagine they would have to be quite a bit heavier than than than standard ailerons. I think I would prefer the lighter control forces. When I used to do acro in the Sonex the standard ailerons were sufficient for my level of acro.
I do have a couple of hundred hrs in a Sonerai, they have shorter chord, full span ailerons. It was both lighter and crisper, faster roll rate than the Sonex. IMHO Shorter chord full span ailerons / flaperons on the Sonex would be awesome.
Re: Aerobatic Ailerons, yes/no?
Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2023 12:40 am
by Bryan Cotton
sonex892. wrote:
I have not flown with the acro ailerons but imagine they would have to be quite a bit heavier than than than standard ailerons. I think I would prefer the lighter control forces.
I don’t have experience with standard ailerons. It makes sense they would be lighter. The aerobatic ailerons are pretty darn light though. Maybe a little heavier than a Pitts.
Re: Aerobatic Ailerons, yes/no?
Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2023 3:27 pm
by Sonerai13
Skippydiesel wrote:I only ever use flaps 1&2 - 3 doesn’t seem to do anything much and is very hard/heavy to select.
The third notch of flaps is not that hard to deploy IF you get the airplane slowed down. When I was giving training in the Sonex airplanes I really had trouble getting customers to slow down. They habitually did everything at too high an airspeed (including deploying flaps). Slow down early and use the flaps as necessary. (You still may find that you don’t use full flaps that often, but they are a tool that is there for your use.)
Skippydiesel wrote:2, just seems to add drag - which is useful on late final.
This is true of most airplanes. Full flaps add a lot more drag than lift, which is by design. Very useful in getting a steeper approach profile if needed to clear obstacles on the approach path, as well as controlling approach speed. Speed control is your friend in all airplanes, but especially with the Sonex. A few extra mph (or knots) on short final will translate into much more runway usage, most of which will be in the float before you ever touch down.
Re: Aerobatic Ailerons, yes/no?
Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2023 3:35 pm
by Sonerai13
sonex892. wrote:I have not flown with the acro ailerons but imagine they would have to be quite a bit heavier than than than standard ailerons.
I switched back and forth between standard and acro ailerons a few times a week when I was at Sonex, and never really noticed a major difference in the feel of the ailerons. They all flew, well, like a Sonex!
sonex892. wrote:I do have a couple of hundred hrs in a Sonerai, they have shorter chord, full span ailerons. It was both lighter and crisper, faster roll rate than the Sonex. IMHO Shorter chord full span ailerons / flaperons on the Sonex would be awesome.
Isn’t the Sonerai a wonderful airplane? Just a joy to fly! However, I don’t think full-span ailerons are that much better than what would be considered “standard” ailerons, as the inner portion of the aileron isn’t really doing all that much work. The full-span ailerons certainly made the wing easier to build on the Sonerai though, which I think was the greater benefit.
Longer span/shorter chord ailerons do have some effect though. Nowhere is this more apparent than when comparing a J3 Cub to an Aeronca Champ. The Champ has shorter, wider chord ailerons, and exhibits a LOT more adverse yaw than the Cub does. The Cub still has some, but not nearly as much as the Champ.
Re: Aerobatic Ailerons, yes/no?
Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2023 5:25 pm
by mccool
Thanks for all the feedback. I’m going with the aero ailerons