accident sonex N610DJ
Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 1:40 am
by WaiexN143NM
hi all
just caught this post on http://www.kathrynsreport.com. N610DJ
posted today 6 feb 2021. accident happened 24 dec 2020.
pilot serious injuries.
Post says he was landing rwy 9
i noticed the wind reported 290 at 14 gusting 21.
WaiexN143NM
Michael
Re: accident sonex N610DJ
Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 7:44 am
by MichaelFarley56
I had not heard of this one.
Report says he lost his engine, couldn’t get it restarted, and stall/spin on a base to final turn. Maybe he was just trying to make it to the runway? If so this is at least the second recent accident where someone experienced engine issues and landed short while trying to return.
I hate hearing of this. Hopefully we will find out what happened soon.
Re: accident sonex N610DJ
Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 9:46 am
by Sonex1517
Direct link
http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2021/02/s … ember.html
Re: accident sonex N610DJ
Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 10:57 am
by GraemeSmith
Generic Comment - not related to this accident in which we don’t know the whole story.
But related to a concern I have about the EAA’s development of their “Turn Back Tool” and from a LOT of practice at a quiet airport…
If you DO get turned around and are performing a downwind landing - DO NOT try and normalize your sight picture. Land VISUALLY FAST…
Meaning:
- Take off into a 10 knot headwind.
- Manage a turn around
- Now you have a 10 knot tailwind landing.
- If your normal landing speed and “picture” is for a 40 knot stall.
- and you try and achieve that “picture” - you will be down at 30 knots and WILL stall and potentially spin.
- Land by AIRSPEED and not normal sight picture. It is disconcertingly fast to see.
–
And if that tailwind is carrying you out over the downwind fence and it is hostile territory on the other side of the fence - Slip HARD and JAM IT DOWN and take the consequences.
Personal Opinion and YMMV
Re: accident sonex N610DJ
Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 12:40 pm
by pilotyoung
I hate these accidents.
I don’t if this has been posted here before but I highly recommend Dan Gryder. His web site is www.dangryder.com. He has a channel on YouTube called, Probable Cause. He also has some stuff at www.aviation101.com
He talks a lot about these stall/spin accidents and how pilots keep killing themselves in the same way. He teaches maneuvers to practice to be ready for the engine failure and to practice keeping your airspeed up.
He recommends adding two lines, with thin tape, to your airspeed indicator. He says in the “head of battle” we forget numbers so if you have the line on your airspeed indicator, you will not forget it it may save your life.
I encourage every pilot to look at his videos. It may just save your life.
Re: accident sonex N610DJ
Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 1:21 pm
by WaiexN143NM
hi all,
great post. yes a line on airspeed indicator , hopefully figured out at alt at gross wt, and a lift reserve indicator
a good safety device. there was an accident in durango co. recently in an rv-4 , airline pilot, just got distracted base to final turn , stall spin, and two fatals.
in this sonex accident the wind was reported from rockford 13 mi. away, so i would assume wind values about the same.
almost a direct tailwind. 290 at 14 gusting 21. aircraft was landing rwy 9 . even with no engine issues this landing would have been a challenge.
ugh… i hate to post these too. im not judging anyone. i want the sonex brand, community, reputation to be sucessful.
i hope we all learn from these accidents/incidents. this isnt just us. look at all the accidents reported on kathrynsreport dailey. its shocking. insurance rates going thru the roof.
be safe and healthy
enjoy the superbowl
regards,
michael.
Re: accident sonex N610DJ
Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2021 7:31 pm
by Sx1552
Does this mean that the Sonex design does not provide an inherent stall buffet to warn of impending stalls?
Re: accident sonex N610DJ
Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2021 8:19 pm
by GraemeSmith
Sx1552 wrote:Does this mean that the Sonex design does not provide an inherent stall buffet to warn of impending stalls?
The Sonex has one of the most “honest” and forgiving stall characteristics of the 27 types in my logbook.
Re: accident sonex N610DJ
Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2021 8:34 pm
by Scott Todd
If you feel a stall buffet, its too late! You should NEVER get near this. Best glide in most GA airplanes is a long way from stall. The ONLY time to get below best glide speed in an emergency is in the flare. This is taught by almost every instructor out there but people just panic in an emergency. Dead stick landings should be practiced and drilled in flight reviews.
A quick glance at the Onex manual says it should stall around 45. It also says best glide is 70. These are a LONG way apart. If it quits, best glide speed should be a minimum!
Dan’s videos are great! Go watch them and practice, practice, practice…
Re: accident sonex N610DJ
Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:57 am
by N111YX
With regards to my particular airframe, I’ll add that the buffet is not very pronounced and is somewhat close to the stall AoA. I get more of a “rumble” first. These may not be a traditional “fair warning” but I have never had a stall occur that surprised me. As previously stated, the stall characteristics are very tame. Where one may be surprised, again only speaking from the experience of operating my airplane, is a relatively (compared to say a C-152 or Warrior ect.) high sink rate that develops about 15-20 mph above the stall speed.
Generally, in most airplanes we approach at 130% of the stall speed and bleed that extra 30% of speed during the flare to carry us safely to one inch off the ground at the stall speed (ideally). This value may not be applicable to your airplane.
I’ve found that if I use 1.3 X Vs, then excess power is almost always required to maintain my desired glidepath. Therefore, I have developed the following technique from experience.
My trick is to bug a speed on my EFIS airspeed indicator that I call the “minimum flare speed”. It’s a speed that is in essence the beginning of the “sink” range and guarantees adequate pitch control through touchdown. I will not mention that speed here because it will be different for every airplane because of many variables. You can find this speed by entering the flare at different speeds until no power is required to correct a mushy, sinking touchdown. I figure that if I ever have to perform an unscheduled power-off landing, I will use this speed as a safe maneuvering target. In fact, I use it on every landing. I don’t look at any particular number on final but rather my margin above my “target” speed. Ideally, I’ll be at 10 feet AGL at idle power on my target speed. Any faster and I’ll needlessly float, any slower and the elevator authority will be too mushy.
I have over 1500 landings logged on my Waiex now and I don’t fear getting near a stall but I am very in tune with its cues. Since we don’t have any required stall warning devices I’d suggest excess operating margins until you have done 20+ stalls in different configurations and bank angles. Take a peek at your VSI during the stall exercises and you may be surprised at the rates of descent. However, I believe this exercise is somewhat flawed because the variable of the low altitude cannot be safely simulated without a simulator. The sensation of rising Earth surely makes it very difficult to not pull back and has taken many from us.
Fly safe everyone.
Edit…I suppose my speed bug target is like Dan Gryder’s concept - basically a quick reference “caution” speed that provides a stall margin. In my case it’s used mostly for landings but could well be applied to an emergency landing. It is, however, below the best glide speed and best viewed as a “don’t go below this unless you are in ground effect” speed.
Sx1552 wrote:Does this mean that the Sonex design does not provide an inherent stall buffet to warn of impending stalls?
Sx1552 wrote:Does this mean that the Sonex design does not provide an inherent stall buffet to warn of impending stalls?
Re: accident sonex N610DJ
Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2021 12:30 pm
by BRS
@kip,
That is helpful information/technique. Thanks.
Re: accident sonex N610DJ
Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2021 2:57 pm
by builderflyer
In my 56 years of flying, I’ve never had an engine failure that has led to a forced landing either on or off an airport runway. But I suspect that if the situation should arise, and especially at the lower heights above ground, the panel is what receives the least attention by the pilot. Looking for the safest place to land is likely where the pilot is most focused. So in that regard, having an audible AOA feature on board could be life saving and the Dynon Skyview has just such a capability. The audible AOA has been calibrated by the pilot in that very aircraft during the initial testing. The sound heard by the pilot begins as a slow beep that goes faster and faster until it becomes a solid tone whereupon the aircraft better be within a couple of feet of touching down. So unless beginning the round out to land, upon hearing the first beep, it’s time to release a bit of back pressure on the stick. No focusing on the airspeed indicator is absolutely necessary while the pilot is busy maneuvering to the safest landing spot.
Just my thoughts…never put to the test under an actual engine out emergency.
Art,Sonex taildragger #95,Jabiru 3300 #261
Re: accident sonex N610DJ
Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2021 3:26 pm
by Scott Todd
I’ve had a few engine outs in my 35 years of flying. Fortunately they were always over good terrain and the landings were uneventful. But I teach it every time I’m with a student. There is a bit of an issue with builderflyers method. Maneuvering close to the ground in an engine out is the wrong place to be anywhere close to a stall. Hearing an audible indicator and releasing back pressure will almost always be disastrous. You are sinking, close to the ground, and a stall warning goes off. Releasing the back pressure makes you sink faster. Bad plan! Just NEVER get there. Fly the attitude of the airplane. You will find if the nose never goes above the horizon, you won’t be near stall. I hammer this point home. While practicing, watch the airspeed and correlate it to the attitude of the airplane. Practice, Practice, Practice. Then if you are dead stick, even simulated, know the attitude you need to keep. Your eyes will be outside where they belong and you will NEVER get close to stall. Once you get to the flare point, it becomes a normal landing.
People just won’t go practice it. They think a simulated engine-out and running the emergency checklist for the Instructor during a flight review is sufficient. WRONG! I make them do it at least 5 times during a flight review. It may seem overkill but go look at the number one reason people die in small aircraft accidents. Watch Dan’s videos!
Re: accident sonex N610DJ
Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2021 7:40 pm
by builderflyer
Scott, I don’t disagree with you at all. But, given the large number of stall-spin accidents that occur too frequently, pilots are just not always practicing and/or employing the excellent method you teach. So my suggestion of utilizing an audible AOA, which provides a warning considerably above stall speed, was to avoid that which is the real killer, arriving at the ground, out of control, in a near vertical attitude. Not optimizing the engine out glide distance may be the lesser price to pay. Just my thought.
Art,Sonex taildragger #95,Jabiru 3300 #261
Re: accident sonex N610DJ
Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2021 8:14 pm
by Sonex1517
I’m gonna toss my two cents in here because this topic is near to me for many reasons, not the least of which is that I successfully landed my Sonex after losing oil pressure in flight.
When I built my Sonex, I installed an LRI - and went to great lengths to calibrate it and learn how to use it. While it does not provide an audible response, it is in my line of sight as I look out the windscreen.
The Sonex is easy to fly, easy to land, and as many others mention, certainly tells you when it’s not happy. But any airplane can kill you.
My point here is whatever tools you have or choose to install, learn how to use them, learn how YOUR airplane behaves in every scenario possible, and practice landing without power until you know where you will touch down.
When it happened to me, I used my LRI and the experience I had gained in my airplane to produce a successful outcome. I also do WINGS training regularly, seek additional instruction and regularly do both pattern work and engine out scenarios.
I’ll shut up now and return to trying to stay warm in the balmy 0°F weather here in Chicagoland.
Re: accident sonex N610DJ
Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 8:14 am
by GraemeSmith
Scott Todd wrote:People just won’t go practice it. They think a simulated engine-out and running the emergency checklist for the Instructor during a flight review is sufficient.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
(in spades)
We are remarkably BAD at getting it right first time we try something. You have to practice, be proficient and on your game.
Elsewhere I have commented about 180 turn backs and the VERY different sight picture of a downwind landing and the need to fly the airspeed and not the normal sight picture. How did I come to that conclusion? Practice. Trying it and Practicing.
Few years back I had an engine quit while operating on top in PA. “NRST” on the GPS offered an airport 12 miles away and I had altitude for a 10 mile glide… But practice had me immediately getting the plane to an optimized Vg. With the help of an aft CG and a very slight tail wind and PRACTICE (plus a little luck) - I made it through the clouds and onto the runway. This is not to blow my own trumpet. As I say very clearly in the Safety Talk I give about the event - it was because I practiced and practiced the scenario.. Going flying and can’t think of anything to do? Go PRACTICE stuff.
Re: accident sonex N610DJ
Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 10:42 am
by jerryhain
As a flight instructor I can tell you that not just most of the time but every time I cover up the airspeed indicator people start flying much better and their air speed control is always better. You have to keep your eyes out of the cockpit and glance at the airspeed indicator to confirm what you already know from location of the horizon.
The YX is a very easy aircraft to fly and land as long as you have less than 15 knots of crosswind. I haven’t got the aerocarb sorted out yet on my YX so most of my engine off landings come from not moving the mixture with the throttle.
Most of the engine failures I’ve had have come from aircraft that were being returned to flight status after long-term storage. Every time I fly I expect the engine to quit and have a plan on where to go every moment of every flight. I’ve never been a fan of low and slow because the dangers of having un-landable areas below me most of the time.
Bottom line is know your aircraft and practice often enough that it becomes a big annoyance instead of a real emergency.
Re: accident sonex N610DJ
Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 12:01 pm
by Scott Todd
Robbie says good stuff. Its all about situational awareness, practice, and knowing your airplane. Builderflyer is missing a point. I (we) don’t give a rats behind about optimal glide distance. Its about the speed or attitude of the airplane. Dan’s video talk about calculating DMMS and marking your airspeed indicator. When I mention these to most students, their eyes glaze over and the math usually goes over their head. But ask them what the best glide speed for their airplane is and they usually know it. But the point is to teach them to recognize and to maintain the proper attitude.This is around best glide speed.
Everything Jerry said is all about this. Read it again 
Attitude! We don’t hear the success stories as much as the crashes but a good example is Jeff Shultz’s forced landing in his Sonex. He did everything right. He ended up damaging his airplane but walked away uninjured. Practice, Practice, Practice!
Re: accident sonex N610DJ
Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 1:33 pm
by WesRagle
Hi Guys,
Lots of good discussion. There does seem to be a common thread running through this rash of accidents that not getting much discussion. Of course we’ll leave the NTSB to do their job but …
https://barnstormers.com/classified-1633883-SONEX-B-Needs-Repair.html
Why?
https://sonexbuilders.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=6019
Why?
And now this thread.
“The airplane engine lost power, and the pilot was unable to restart the engine.”
Why?
BTW, as I write this, we’re at 6 Deg. F. down here near DFW under bright sunny skies.
Wes
Re: accident sonex N610DJ
Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 1:46 pm
by builderflyer
Well I’m not sure what it is that I’m missing. My original message on this topic was to suggest a valid alternative means of avoiding the all too common stall spin accident, given the distraction of having an engine out and having to locate the safest place to land in short order, at relatively low altitude. The fact that many pilots are not paying attention to their air speed indicator or even the expected sight picture of an established glide is a given in that they wouldn’t otherwise stall and spin their aircraft under these trying circumstances. And, my suggestion doesn’t necessarily require practice, practice, practice. As few hours as most pilots fly in a year, if the solution were to be as simple as “practice” more (and it may be)…it just isn’t going to happen as it would necessitate that nearly every flight would be a practice flight and that’s not a realistic expectation. So whether it be an audible alert, or in Robbie’s case, a visual cue in the windshield that doesn’t require the pilot to remove their eyes from from the windshield and the focus on the intended area of landing, then that’s a good thing. Please note that my suggestion is not one to be applied for an engine out at the higher altitudes where a significant amount time is available before touching down such the ones experienced by Jeff or Graeme. …these fellows both did an amazing job in bringing their airplanes down as safely as possible but they also had the time necessary to think through the process and consider the alternatives available without facing the “immediate” distraction of landing their airplanes without power.
I don’t have anything more to say on this topic. All are welcome to take it or leave it as they choose.
Art,Sonex taildragger #95,Jabiru 3300 #261