Turn back to the airport - the Impossible Turn
Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2015 8:25 pm
by SonexN76ET
This post is insensitive and will likely offend many of you. For this I apologize up front. But, this has to be said. Hopefully it will save someone’s life.
I recently read an article in the AOPA magazine where the author recounted two engine failures in his career where he was able to make a 180 turn and return to the runway. One was in a seaplane. In his case I believe it was a case of dumb luck mixed with some skill. Let’s face it, he was lucky. I also know of several pilots who lost an engine and landed straight ahead and damaged their airplanes but walked away. A guy here in Atlanta recently lost his engine on takeoff on his 6 place aircraft glided past an abandoned factory with a huge vacant parking lot and then stalled and spun into heavy rush hour traffic on the interstate. in some of the recent Sonex accidents it appears the pilots were trying the Impossible Turn as well. They all died.
We need to quit dying senselessly. Damn it, if you loose an engine on takeoff do not succumb to the temptation to make a turn for the airport at anything below 800 felt AGL. If you do, you will die. Just don’t do it!
Maintain best glide spread and find the softest thing ahead of you to land on and make a normal landing. Odds are you will walk away.
I love you guys and don’t want to see anyone else get hurt.
Jake
Re: Turn back to the airport - the Impossible Turn
Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:12 pm
by Sonex1517
As someone just getting back to flying after a 5 year hiatus, all I can say is thank you for posting it. My BFR is scheduled tomorrow morning and I have spent part of this week trying to review what I knew a while ago. This was one of those items I spent time reviewing and hope comes up in the BFR.
Re: Turn back to the airport - the Impossible Turn
Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:56 pm
by MichaelFarley56
Thank you for posting this Jake.
As a long time CFI, I couldn’t agree more with your thoughts. Too many people get into trouble trying this “impossible turn” among other attempts to save the airplane. I firmly believe we homebuilders are at an additional disadvantage given our special attachment to our creations. Certified airplane owners spend a lot of money to purchase their airplanes, but they don’t spend years building them. That attachment has the potential to affect our decision making process during an emergency since we don’t want to destroy our cherished “babies.”
Here are a few pointers that I always try to enforce during the Flight Reviews I administer:
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Always have a plan or a way out. As you prepare to fly out of you home airport, study the local area to see what potential landing sites are available. Maybe you can land straight ahead when departing off one runway, while a slight turn may be necessary when departing the opposite direction. Watch for housing developments, other airports, open fields, etc. Always have a plan!
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If you lose power, PUSH THE STICK! We’re all humans and if we lose power it will take a few seconds to process this information. Start making it muscle memory to push the stick if your engine goes out in order to preserve airspeed. This leaves you options in the moments to follow.
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It’s a terrible thought to consider, but if your engine quits, starting at that very instant, the insurance company owns the airplane. Don’t try to save the airplane; your only mission is to save yourself. Sacrifice the airplane to save yourself if you need to.
You’re right Jake. We all need to be careful out there! Thank you again for posting this.
Re: Turn back to the airport - the Impossible Turn
Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2015 10:19 pm
by Gripdana
PUSH. You would be surprised how far forward you have to push when the engine goes out. Mine went out during slow flight testing during a stall. PUSH and fly the plane,always have a plan.
Re: Turn back to the airport - the Impossible Turn
Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2015 4:50 am
by N111YX
It’s always good to refresh this topic every now and again but allow me add…
Every pilot that has tried the turn and failed knew well enough not to attempt it and likely would have told you to how wrong it is right before their last takeoff. I had RPM’s roll back in an Arrow because of a bad prop governor once and I thought the engine was failing. I had no place in front of me to go other than trees. What was my overwhelming instinct? Turn. Luckily, the engine ran well enough to climb. I was shocked by the level of desire to turn while knowing the record of those who did before.
My point is that the important decision may not be whether to make the turn or not, but rather to crash or not. When faced with zero options ahead, I think many dead pilots knew the Golden Rule quite well but for the mind to switch gears and accept personal injury goes against survival instincts and it’s difficult to overrule such entrenched logic in a matter of a few seconds.
Because of my experience, I have no disrespect for those that had nothing ahead but still tried to turn.
Re: Turn back to the airport - the Impossible Turn
Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2015 8:30 am
by Msing48
On the same note, I have known two men that died, most likely from trying to stretch their glide to an unobstructed area only to stall short of clearing the trees. RULE #1 is KEEP FLYING THE PLANE !!!
Re: Turn back to the airport - the Impossible Turn
Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2015 9:39 am
by Sonerai13
Msing48 wrote:On the same note, I have known two men that died, most likely from trying to stretch their glide to an unobstructed area only to stall short of clearing the trees. RULE #1 is KEEP FLYING THE PLANE !!!
It is far better to fly into trees at a controlled minimum airspeed than to stall and hit the trees in an extreme nose-down attitude with more than minimum speed. In fact, any angled impact with minimum speed will be far more survivable than a vertical impact at more than minimum speed (usually much more). I’ve been involved in several accident investigations, all of which resulted in “uncontrolled flight into terrain/water”, which is FAA-speak for stall/spin. It’s never pretty, and almost universally fatal.
Mike’s comments about having a plan and studying the areas surrounding the airport in advance couldn’t be more spot-on. Know your options before you need to choose one! Modify your operations if necessary to give you more or better options.
One last thought; DON’T DO INTERSECTION TAKEOFFS unless you know for sure that you have an “out” in case of engine failure. An intersection takeoff puts you at lower altitude at the airport boundary, which in turn narrows your options drastically. Remember those “three things useless to a pilot”.
Re: Turn back to the airport - the Impossible Turn
Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2015 1:52 pm
by vwglenn
After my T-flight training (thanks again Joe) I knew I would be hitting the pattern in my Sonex very soon. Given the engine in my plane was rebuilt and had very low time on it, the possibility of an engine failure was in the forefront of my mind. My home airport would not be kind to an engine failure so I made sure I had a couple alternate spots to go if I lost the engine on takeoff. To the southeast there is an unfinished subdivision. The road is finished but the houses are not built. I made sure I took a trip down that road to verify there weren’t any power lines and the road was in good shape. To the Northwest I could only find one decent option. There is a golf course fairway about 30 degrees right of the runway. It’s not entirely level but it’s smooth enough.
I practiced the impossible turn in my 170 at an appropriate altitude and no where near a runway. When completely ready for the simulated failure and with some practice, I could make the turn losing an average of about 400 feet in altitude if memory serves. And that was under ideal conditions. What I gained from it was to not even bother trying to turn back unless I was above 1000 AGL. I imagine that an actual engine failure would take a much longer time to react to. First you actually have to process that the engine quit. That might take a moment to sink in. Then there’s the panic once it does sink in and you’ll have the fight or flight response where you’re frozen for some degree of time. Hopefully you have the flight response which will tell you to fly the plane. By the time you process all that, you’ve probably lost 100 feet or more. Your primeval brain will want nothing more than to head back to the sweet safety of the runway and you’re just going to have to fight that impulse and win. You must win.
Screw the plane! Better that it’s broken than me. I had my CFI friend pull the power back to simulate the standard engine failure during my last BFR in the old 170. I immediately pointed the plane at a pasture. He asked me why don’t I try to make a nearby runway which is pretty close. I told him I wasn’t sure I could make the airport but I knew I could make the pasture. We headed to the runway for training and I made it…barely…which was a good learning experience about the capabilities of the airplane. But I would still take the pasture every single time if there was even a flicker of doubt.
I’m also reminded of the “runway behind you” thing every time I take off in my Sonex. In the old Cessna I could put the main on the very edge of the runway threshold as I taxied out to the center line. My low wing Sonex won’t let me do that without removing the threshold lights. So I lose 10 feet of runway on every takeoff now.
Re: Turn back to the airport - the Impossible Turn
Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2015 8:33 pm
by fastj22
If you are comfortable with spinning your Sonex, I highly recommend doing a simulated impossible turn at a safe altitude. Note your altitude, simulate a climb out, cut the throttle and try to do a hard 180. Note the altitude loss when you reach the new course. Or note the spin if you push it too hard. Either will teach you respect on what your plane can and can’t do.
If you are not comfortable spinning your Sonex, I highly recommend getting spin training to know what happens when you push an airplane beyond its aerodynamic capabilities. Just don’t eat a big breakfast before you do it.
Re: Turn back to the airport - the Impossible Turn
Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2015 9:52 pm
by Rynoth
Good discussion. Just keep in mind that an aggressive 180 turn will most likely leave you: #1 offset from the runway center-line, and #2 some distance from the end of the runway. I say this only to keep in mind that additional altitude will be required to reach and align with the runway, which is hard to simulate at altitude. I.E. several hundred extra feet. I’ll do tests myself once my plane is complete, but my general rule of thumb is not to attempt a turn-back below 1000 feet AGL.
Re: Turn back to the airport - the Impossible Turn
Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:55 pm
by Speed
Interesting discussion. Lot’s of emotion (understandable, due to the loss of life involved).
As we can all agree, flying is a thinking man’s game. As pilots, we recognize that we are subject to the laws of physics, which are then constrained by our own human limitations. As a glider pilot, I know a successful 180 turn back is possible, given the right conditions (physics, pilot). As we test and evaluate our aircraft and ourselves, we can certainly establish our own operational parameters plus hopefully work towards an ever-increasing envelope of capability and precision. This shouldn’t be guess work. And, situationally, each pilot will find a different set of answers for themselves as the physics change and their own capabilities change. I believe there is a place for keeping “turning back to the runway” in our aviator’s toolbox. Clearly, we shouldn’t be employing tools we don’t know how to use yet, nor or the other hand, should it be the only tool in our box. But, especially as “experimental aviators” we must keep our mind in the game at all times. Pre-calculation, testing, and practice are they way we create the safest flying environment, that then gives us the optimal freedom to enjoy it. Unplanned, untrained situational responses should be left to when it is the only option available, and then we should still lean hard on our well-developed understanding of the physics and our own capabilities. Will I turn back to the runway if my engine quits? Well, that depends!
Re: Turn back to the airport - the Impossible Turn
Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:17 am
by EdW
Like I said on another forum, ain’t no way in Hell I’m going to try to get the insurance companys airplane back to the airport behind me.
FLY THE AIRPLANE UNTIL THE LAST OF THE DUST SETTLES!!!
Ed
Re: Turn back to the airport - the Impossible Turn
Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:53 am
by rick9mjn
I am very much in a agreement, with what “speed” said on Feb. 13 , and what “EdW” said on March 2. . The only thing I can add is this;
. When I was taking Glider lessons, when I was in the glider ( with the instructor setting behind me), ready for the tow plane to start the tow. After I had went through the pre-flight Take off check list.
I would grab the control stick ,with my “trigger finger” pointing straight ahead, And I would keep it pointed straight ahead . Until I reached 200 ft in the tow. That way I was set up (in my mind) for what to do if their was a rope break. Also being ready to push the stick forward ,when the instructor pulled the rope release at 220 ft. This is just cheep/maybe good idea to think about…
good day…/rick
Re: Turn back to the airport - the Impossible Turn
Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:11 pm
by vigilant104
Question to the masses: Has anyone seen an article on this issue that is specific to the Sonex? I know we should all do our own testing (and actual practice, at altitude), but it would be helpful to have a baseline of information. Yes, every plane is different, but they aren’t >massively< different. If we start with some baseline assumptions (climb speed, wind component, turn/lineup technique, delay time to recognize the problem and take action, etc. Weight shouldn’t have a significant impact on glide distance, just glide speed ) it would seem possible to come up with a mark on the wall for when a “turn back” is in the realm of the possible. Then, a big dollop of “add X feet for mom and the kids” and we’d have something to start with.
If we have good, acccurate Sonex perforamce data, that would be a start. I suppose we could come up with a standard technique (e.g. climbout airpseed, opposite 30 deg bank for X seconds, then bank into the wind for X seconds to achieve reciprocal heading from climbout, etc) and have a few folks check things out (at altitude) to see what the numbers look like. Maybe this is covered in the Sonex Transition Training syllabus?
Elsewhere, Mike made a general call for input germane to SBPF, maybe this is something worthwhile (if it hasn’t been done already). I’m not the most qualified person to do it, but I’d be happy to put something together over time, if there is interest, if this is new ground, and if folks would be willing to chime in with input. The intent would be twofold:
- Help folks make it back to the runway when it is entirely practical and safe
- (Much more important) Minimize delay, indecision, and panic in the case of power failure on takeoff. Hopefully, if we have in our heads a distance/AGL altitude that corresponds with “I can safely make it back now” based on some data and practice, the decisionmaking before that point will be more timely, and less stressful (and therefore more accurate). Immediately eliminating the “turn back” option can save valuable time and allow us to concentrate on finding the “least bad” alternative available.
Re: Turn back to the airport - the Impossible Turn
Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:18 pm
by daleandee
vigilant104 wrote:Elsewhere, Mike made a general call for input germane to SBPF, maybe this is something worthwhile (if it hasn’t been done already). I’m not the most qualified person to do it, but I’d be happy to put something together over time, if there is interest, if this is new ground, and if folks would be willing to chime in with input. The intent would be twofold:
- Help folks make it back to the runway when it is entirely practical and safe
- (Much more important) Minimize delay, indecision, and panic in the case of power failure on takeoff.
A very worthwhile undertaking to say the least! I’ve had an engine out on take-off in a Challenger 11 LW with a student in the front seat. Engine quit ~100’ up. It didn’t cross my mind to turn back as I had a good instructor that drilled into my head about not turning back. Still I do think that there are times when it could be considered. Currently on take-off I’m determined to land ahead within about a 30-45º area left to right centered in front of the airplane.
But consider that the crosswind leg after takeoff is done at 5-600’ AGL (most airports want 300’ below TPA) and the 90º turn is complete. At that point could a turn back be made? We’re talking 270º of turns and a downwind landing in a position that may bring you high over the runway depending on how long your departure leg was before the turn (and assuming no obstacles).
There is so much written about this and opinions abound. But if you (with input from the group) can put together some Sonex specific numbers … I think that would be an awesome piece of information to have. Obviously every pilot will have to set their own minimums and practice this for themselves at altitude but I would give everyone the wise words of my (and many other) instructors … when the engine stumbles, coughs, sags, or quits, “GET THAT STICK FORWARD!” Once you have flying speed you can take a breath and aim for that spot you planned to use before take-off if something like this were to happen. You did have a plan didn’t you?
Dale Williams
N319WF @ 6J2
Myunn - “daughter of Cleanex”
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Re: Turn back to the airport - the Impossible Turn
Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:44 pm
by lutorm
vigilant104 wrote:If we have good, acccurate Sonex perforamce data, that would be a start. I suppose we could come up with a standard technique (e.g. climbout airpseed, opposite 30 deg bank for X seconds, then bank into the wind for X seconds to achieve reciprocal heading from climbout, etc) and have a few folks check things out (at altitude) to see what the numbers look like.
One thing that I read once that stands out to me was “many small airplanes have a poorer climb ratio than they have glide ratio”, at least at some weight. In that case, it doesn’t matter how high you are: if the engine stops after a climb straight out you aren’t making it back.
I’m curious if anyone knows where an 80hp Aerovee-powered Sonex falls in this spectrum. At what weight does the climb ratio equal the glide ratio?