insurance roundtable
Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2021 1:58 pm
by WaiexN143NM
hi all,
check out the new video on http://www.avweb.com
talking abount insurance.
high number of accidents every day, as posted on kathrynsreport, aviation safety bulliten, avweb, faa.gov site and more.
Video is 41 min. Grab a coffee.
We have a high accident rate in the sonex community, mostly due to engine failure due to unexplained cause.
Luckily my insurance rates didnt go up this year, just got the renewal.
Be safe out there, do not fly unless all squawks resolved.
Hoping for a safe 2021!
best,
WaiexN143NM
Michael
Re: insurance roundtable
Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:51 pm
by fastj22
I’m getting a quote for my C140 and PIK20D sailplane for the season. My current insurance is liability only for the Waiex at $500/year, Aerospace Insurance. I use Costello Insurance for the sailplane because that’s their specialty and are reasonable. They underwrite for others. Aerospace Insurance will drop me if I insure my C140 with any other provider. They also stated my
Waiex policy will renew at $1500 in June. Liability only. Clearly I need to dump them.
Are other getting ridiculous quotes for liability only on their experimentals? My certified planes are reasonable, under $500 each.
Re: insurance roundtable
Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:29 pm
by WaiexN143NM
hi all,
wow! we were paying about $500/yr liability only never a claim. then last year shot up to $700. renewed this yr
march, took dad off, only myself listed, still $700.
remember ins companies gotta stay in business, so other lines of insurance suffer lots of losses, and ours goes up too.
good luck.
WaiexN143NM
Michael.
Re: insurance roundtable
Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 10:02 pm
by fastj22
WaiexN143NM wrote:hi all,
wow! we were paying about $500/yr liability only never a claim. then last year shot up to $700. renewed this yr
march, took dad off, only myself listed, still $700.
remember ins companies gotta stay in business, so other lines of insurance suffer lots of losses, and ours goes up too.
good luck.WaiexN143NM
Michael.
Curious, is the experimental insurance becoming out of reach for us? Will we fly uninsured? Hull damage is one thing, but I carry liability so I can take a passenger and to protect my estate if I hit a bus of kids or a prize heffer. I’m not taking anyone up if I’m not protected.
My glider is pretty easy. Its just me. But I hook up to a tow plane. If I do something stupid and take out that tow plane, I’m covered with liability insurance. If it hit a bus full of orphans, I’m covered. If I ground loop the plane on a landout and take out a prize heffer, I’m covered.
My glider quote is coming in at $350/year liability. The C140 a bit more. Both certified. The Sonex, whoa nelly. $1500? Is EAA helping us here? AOPA?
Re: insurance roundtable
Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:12 am
by lpaaruule
My insurance company sent me a notice to brace myself for the upcoming renewal in June. The last couple years it’s been around $1500 for full coverage. I think my first year was $2500, and that was after I had already flown 10 hours uninsured, as there was no transition training available.
There may be a lot of accidents in small planes, but there are also a lot of accidents and theft with cars. An F-150 can cost around the same as a modestly equipped RV-7. Even a fender bender can cost several thousand dollars to repair.
As far a liability, I suppose there is more of a chance of hitting someone’s $500,000 house with a plane than a car, but how often does that happen, and when it does, how often is the entire house destroyed?
I suspect the experimental market it getting gouged, and “cheap” planes like the Sonex are subsidizing more expensive planes. It’s interesting when you get full coverage the liability part is about a third of the total premium, but liability alone is almost the cost off full coverage in some cases.
In the few years I’ve been flying my Sonex, I’ve never had a claim, and have already paid around 1/4 of its value in insurance premiums.
I’m likely going to try to find the lowest quote I can for liability insurance this year. If I can’t find a decent price, then I’m going to look into other ways of protecting myself. If I can shield my house, and 401K, there isn’t much else they can take. I know if Florida, they can’t take your house, or car, and you can have up to $10,000 in liquid assets. Here in Michigan, I don’t know.
Re: insurance roundtable
Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:41 am
by Fastcapy
Holy carp.
I just renewed last week and was angry it went up from $360 to $450/year for liability ($1200 full coverage based on their minimum of $50k valuation).
I can’t believe you guys are getting quotes in the thousands of $ for liability only.
My balloon also went up roughly the same amount.
Re: insurance roundtable
Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:49 am
by BRS
Fastcapy wrote:Holy carp.
I just renewed last week and was angry it went up from $360 to $450/year for liability ($1200 full coverage based on their minimum of $50k valuation).
I can’t believe you guys are getting quotes in the thousands of $ for liability only.
My balloon also went up roughly the same amount.
Fastcapy, occationally I run across folks that seem to be getting reasonable rates. It seems to be the exception and not the rule. So it makes me wonder, what makes you so special? Number of hours flown? Long standing history with same agent or underwriter? multiple aircraft?
Seems that asking these kind of questions to the agent always falls on deaf ears. Though I think they could be much more help if they wanted. I’ve not yet insured my sonex since it’s still a restoration project. But it wont be long before I email my agent and start asking about coverage.
Re: insurance roundtable
Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:59 pm
by Fastcapy
BRS wrote:Fastcapy, occationally I run across folks that seem to be getting reasonable rates. It seems to be the exception and not the rule. So it makes me wonder, what makes you so special? Number of hours flown? Long standing history with same agent or underwriter? multiple aircraft?
Seems that asking these kind of questions to the agent always falls on deaf ears. Though I think they could be much more help if they wanted. I’ve not yet insured my sonex since it’s still a restoration project. But it wont be long before I email my agent and start asking about coverage.
Yeah I don’t know the answer to that.
I had my Sonex and balloon insured with two different companies, but moved my Sonex to the same place as my balloon just to make it simpler. The rates were the same when I moved over. I have about 150hrs in my Sonex. Maybe having a commercial certificate helps keep rates lower. I don’t really know. I just know I am paying the minimum rate for liability on the Sonex.
I do know my agent very well since the ballooning community is small and there is only 2 insurance options. So maybe the agent also has something to do with it. Your guess is as good as mine.
Re: insurance roundtable
Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:05 pm
by BRS
Yeah, Commercial, IFR, CFI, A&P don’t seem to be helping my rates at all (at least for the Sportsman anyway).
Thanks for the reply.
Re: insurance roundtable
Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:10 pm
by fastj22
Costello Insurance, the glider specialist, told me that more and more underwriters are not offering insurance for Sonex at all. Not sure if its Sonex specifically, or experimentals in whole. I have a $2M umbrella policy with my homeowners policy that covers everything my other insurance won’t. But I’m not sure it protects me if don’t carry any liability on the plane. I need to find out.
Re: insurance roundtable
Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 7:51 pm
by mike.smith
6 years ago when I first insured my tailwheel Sonex I paid $1,657 for liability, passenger medical, and a $35,000 hull value. I have the same insurance now and it looks like this:
Global Aerospace(Current Policy)
Value: $35,000 Premium: $928
Ded $0/0
Liability: $1,000,000 limited to $100,000 per passenger Premium: $211
Total Annual Premium: $1,139
My premiums have generally gone DOWN, or remained level. I think that’s because it’s a tailwheel, and with more time and experience they have been able to decrease my rates. The only time it went up was by about $100 after I had a prop strike and repaired the engine (myself). It went back down the next year.
I’m instrument rated (not current). I have 930 hours of total time, 507 hours of Sonex time (some of that is tricycle gear while doing flight testing on another person’s Sonex), and 508 hours of tailwheel time.
I’m still waiting to get my numbers back for this year, so I’ll report back when I do.
Re: insurance roundtable
Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:54 pm
by fastj22
While we are complaining about insurance, let me vent one of my peeves.
With three planes, why do I need three separate liability policies covering only me? Shouldn’t liability cover the pilot, not the plane?
I can only fly one at a time. Or at least set a single policy on the highest risk plane.
Re: insurance roundtable
Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:04 pm
by BRS
fastj22 wrote:While we are complaining about insurance, let me vent one of my peeves.
With three planes, why do I need three separate liability policies covering only me? Shouldn’t liability cover the pilot, not the plane?
I can only fly one at a time. Or at least set a single policy on the highest risk plane.
Agree
Re: insurance roundtable
Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:59 pm
by Sonex1517
I just got the quote for my Sonex through Global
$1065
I am instrument rated (also not current) with about 250 hours tailwheel and 1300 total time. About 190 hours in the Sonex. I do WINGS training also.
$915 of this is for Hull coverage of $35,000. The liability is about $150.
Re: insurance roundtable
Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:49 am
by lpaaruule
This is what the email said:
Global Aerospace would like to inform you of the following:
The conditions in the aviation insurance market continue to evolve as the industry works to quantify the impact of the claims being presented. As a result, the above-reference policy may be subject to a premium increase with respect to the upcoming renewal.
INSURANCE TYPES, LIMITS AND PREMIUM
Coverage Annual Premium
Liability Insurance
Each Occurrence $1,000,000 $219
Each Passenger Subject to $100,000
Physical Damage: F. All Risks Basis (Ground and Flight)
2017 SONEX LTD SONEX (TD) LSA N454EE $1,336
Insured Value: $40,000
Deductible: In motion $Nil / Not in motion $Nil
Re: insurance roundtable
Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:18 am
by builderflyer
Sonex1517 wrote:I just got the quote for my Sonex through Global
$915 of this is for Hull coverage of $35,000. The liability is about $150.
Robbie, compared to many others (and myself) your rates seem rediculously low. Two factors that may be in play here are (1) the state that you live in, and (2) that you have both hull and liability coverage together. I live in the sue happy state of California and have seen other’s quotes for liability coverage in other states be significantly lower than mine, even though I was a more qualified pilot. Additionally, when I have asked about liability only coverage vs liability and hull coverage, the quote I received for liability only coverage was much higher, double as I recall, as when combined with hull. But doubling your liability coverage amount of $150, you’re still only up to $300. I bailed out of Global coverage when the rate jumped to $450 as , for me, there were better options.
In any event, I just cringe every time another Sonex product appears in a Kathryn’s report as there is just one more reason for our rates to increase. If I ever go back to a standard category aircraft, it’ll probably be because of insurance considerations, either the obtainability or the cost thereof that drove me there.
Art,Sonex taildragger #95,Jabiru 3300 #261
Re: insurance roundtable
Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:30 am
by DCASonex
Cautionary note to those who think their homeowners or Umbrella liability policies with cover and aviation event, check your policy carefully. Mine specifically excludes anything to do with an airplane, and the homeowners policy will not even cover loss of tools and equipment that I have at home used to build the plane (as if they could tell which was what.)
David A.
Re: insurance roundtable
Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 11:09 am
by kmacht
When I was looking for liability only I went through First Flight Insurance Group. They have a deal with the US Ultralight association where they will provide a 1 million dollar liability insurance on LSA aircraft (including EX-AB) for about $500 a year.
http://www.firstflightinsurance.com/Sit … sports.asp
For those also thinking about Life and AD&D insurance policies make sure you read the details of your policies carefully. Most of the ones I looked at before doing my first flight would not cover an accident in a privately owned airplane and/or had limitations on the the type of airplane that would have made the policy void for an experimental. The only coverage I could find was actually through a policy that my employer offered. It didn’t have those same limitations but I work for a major jet engine manufacturer who will pay for a portion of flight training under certain conditions and that may be part of the reason why. Better to read the policy now instead of those you may leave behind finding out they don’t have the financial safety net they were counting on without you there.
Keith
#554
Re: insurance roundtable
Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 7:27 pm
by daleandee
I have recommended to a number of people (offline) to contact AIR for a quote:
Victoria Neuville
Agent, Commercial Pilot, CFI
Aviation Insurance Resources (AIR)
P.O. BOX 32 | Frederick, MD 21705
Ph 301-682-6200 | Fax 301-682-9793
vneuville@air-pros.com | http://www.air-pros.com
Insurance on my plane is less than a grand a year (includes $25,000 hull) and the increase this year was less than $20.00 (if I recall correctly).
I know that tail wheel makes a difference but I don’t know about engine choice …
Re: insurance roundtable
Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2021 9:35 pm
by WaiexN143NM
Hi all,
Good article on www.kathrynsreport.com today, about aircraft insurance. state of utah passed a law require aircraft insurance. Be aware of your airport, private, city, county, state may have requirements for insurance. Not having any, or not the minimum, could really leave you exposed if somebody got hurt, property damage etc. not having any…or underinsured…well thats rolling the dice…
WaiexN143NM
Michael
Re: insurance roundtable
Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 8:21 am
by Fastcapy
daleandee wrote:I have recommended to a number of people (offline) to contact AIR for a quote:
Victoria Neuville
Agent, Commercial Pilot, CFI
Aviation Insurance Resources (AIR)
P.O. BOX 32 | Frederick, MD 21705
Ph 301-682-6200 | Fax 301-682-9793
vneuville@air-pros.com | http://www.air-pros.comInsurance on my plane is less than a grand a year (includes $25,000 hull) and the increase this year was less than $20.00 (if I recall correctly).
I know that tail wheel makes a difference but I don’t know about engine choice …
I agree with the AIR recommendation. They are who I use for my balloon (they are 1 of only 2 companies that write commercial balloon policies) and just switched my Sonex to them as well. They have outstanding customer service and competitive rates.
Re: insurance roundtable
Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:58 am
by N111YX
I’m quite pleased with my recent renewal of $829.00 including $40K hull, and $1,000,000 occurrence.
Liability is $103.00 and risk is $726.00.
ATP with 900 hours in type likely helps.
This is through Laura Scherer at Falcon Insurance.
Re: insurance roundtable
Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 2:45 pm
by Spaceman
How do you guys decide on a hull value? Does insurance factor in the value of your own labor building the plane or anything like that?
Re: insurance roundtable
Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:15 pm
by N111YX
I use $40K as a sort of personal value that would make the loss the easiest to accept and would pay for whatever I wanted to replace it with.
You must balance the insurance premium against what size of check you would like in the event of a loss. I have not shopped the rates for a lower hull value but as I said above, my rates seem pretty reasonable.
Spaceman wrote:How do you guys decide on a hull value? Does insurance factor in the value of your own labor building the plane or anything like that?
Re: insurance roundtable
Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:05 pm
by Sonex1517
For both the Sonex and the Champ, I was asked what the hull value was. The quote was based on that number.
Like Kip said - what do you want insured and what do you want to pay?
Re: insurance roundtable
Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:53 pm
by pilotyoung
In my opinion you should always insure your airplane for what it is worth. We just had a day of tornado’s here in Alabama. One airport about 20 miles southwest of my airport had two rows of t-hangars destroyed along with the airplanes inside them. I am thankful the tornado did not come near my airport but if my airplane had been destroyed by the tornado, I would take the insurance proceeds and go shopping for another one. I have it insured for what I think it is worth. I realize that I did not spend years building it and so I don’t have all those emotional ties that a builder has.
If you insure the airplane for less that it is worth, you run the risk of a minor claim causing it to be declared a total loss. If it is a total loss, the insurance company pays you the amount it is insured for and takes the salvage. So if you under insure it, you run the risk of losing your airplane and not being able to buy another one.
Re: insurance roundtable
Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2021 10:56 am
by Scott Todd
I have my little Biplane insured for not-in-motion and liability, even though its only a one-seater, That way if I land on a road and whack a car, or hit something in a field, its covered. The not-in-motion is good for things like the storms in Alabama or if something happens tied down at a fly-in. We’ve had a few hangar fires and some storms have blown our old hangar doors in. I think its only a little over $200 a year. As others have said, the hull part (flying or in-motion) is what drives them up.
I’ll probably do the same for the Onex I’m finishing. I bought it as a project from a friend so I don’t have a lot invested in it. If I doink it, its on me. I’ll fix it or scrap it and re-use what I can for another project.
Scott
Re: insurance roundtable
Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:28 pm
by mike.smith
OK, gang. I said I’d post when my renewal came through. Here’s the text from my broker:
Good Morning Mike,
I have received the renewal quotes for the aircraft and have some good news for you this year.
Global Aerospace(Current Policy)
Value: $35,000 Premium: $928
Ded $0/0
Liability: $1,000,000 limited to $100,000 per passenger Premium: $211
Total Annual Premium: $1,139
Global Aerospace (Renewal Quote)
Value: $35,000 Premium: $665
Ded $0/0
Liability: $1,000,000 limited to $100,000 per passenger Premium: $113
Medical Payments: $10,000
Total Annual Premium: $778
It seems like every day I get to make one and only one person happy. Today you are that lucky person. The aviation marketplace has continued to harden and rates have risen exponentially. It is hard to explain the decrease in premium but it is certainly something we won’t argue with.
We also have a handful of other quotes however all are more expensive. Please let me know if you have any questions or if any changes are needed.
Re: insurance roundtable
Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:04 am
by GraemeSmith
Mike,
Who brokered that?
Re: insurance roundtable
Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:33 am
by builderflyer
mike.smith wrote:OK, gang. I said I’d post when my renewal came through. Here’s the text from my broker:
Good Morning Mike,
Global Aerospace (Renewal Quote)
Total Annual Premium: $778
It seems like every day I get to make one and only one person happy. Today you are that lucky person.
.
Mike, I agree with your broker about you being that “lucky” person. But the other side of the coin is your personal qualifications. If you’re willing to share, what are your ratings, your TT, your time in a Sonex, your time in the past 12 months, your taildragger time, your accident/incident history, and your age. Except for age, I’ll bet I meet or exceed all of your personal history and when Global raised my liability only premium to $450, I bailed out with them. Once again, I believe the state in which one lives plays a significant role in the quoted premium, although I’m now experiencing the old age thing as well.
Art,Sonex taildragger #95,Jabiru 3300 #261